Loving The Stranger Among Us: How Can We Create Genuine Hospitality in the Church? | With Guest Rohadi Nagassar

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:00:00

This is Journey with Care. We're starting our new series, loving the stranger among us.

Wendi Park [: 00:01:30

Well, today, we're starting a new series, juicy topics, called Loving the Stranger Among Us, and I'm really pleased to have with us in studio our guest, Rohadi Nagassar. Rohadi is a a writer, an entrepreneur. He's a nonprofit developer. He's a pastor. Comes to us living on Treaty 7 land in Calgary, Alberta, and he's a both a practitioner and a Thought leader. He's planted 3 churches. This could go on and on. He is a guy that you want to meet, and I'm so delighted to have him with us in studio.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:01

He's written Several books and one particularly that we're gonna be really focusing in on his most recent book, When We Belong, Reclaiming Christianity on the Margins from Herald Press. And if you like podcasts like you are right now, I encourage you to listen to his podcast, Faith in a Fresh Vibe. Rohadi, welcome to the podcast.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:02:23

Thank you very much for including me in this new series.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:27

Oh, it is a pleasure. I was listening to your book all summer long and listening and relistening to certain chapters, and it they just Landed with me. I was already planning this series, and I thought, I wonder if Rohadi would be able to come on to the podcast. We love getting different voices across Canada Speaking to this, and I couldn't be more delighted than you speaking on this topic, Loving The Stranger Among Us. Can you tell me a little bit about your background and how you came to write on this topic, When We Belong?

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:02:57

Yeah. Well, first off, And, thanks for what it sounds like getting the audiobook. That's pretty neat. Not many people get the audiobook.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:06

You helped me, do my whole landscaping. I have to tell you. I went

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:03:09

I was

Wendi Park [: 00:03:10

pumping these topics through while I was doing landscaping. I loved it.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:03:14

Awesome. How did I get to start? Well, the book was a different idea to start with. It was about bringing people who I thought were remarkable on the fringes of, probably Christianity in the church, and they were just operating, doing, living despite circumstances. But In reality, it's my story. It's my story written out about growing up in a predominantly white evangelical tradition And what I would name is white now, but always wondering why didn't I fit in? I'm obviously not white. So I decided to make sense and start to name the aspects that were pulling me from living out my whole self and Realizing that the story that I had was one through a particular intersection around ethnicity and race, But it was the same story for so many others who have experienced a sense of a need to deny parts of themselves In order to fit in, in order to find belonging within churches, and churches by and large only use Canada as our context here. I have used a strong word before of largely incompetent connecting with people who don't look like it, don't vote like it, people who look, earn, think, act, Live probably in the same place or around the same age. We're churches dominated by sameness and not ones with distinct competencies around how to go wider in our well, the topic of this podcast, how to be Hospitable and how that is a new ethic for the church, not new, for the church to embody.

Wendi Park [: 00:05:04

Yeah. And I think that's possibly, you articulated why your work resonated with me because you were putting language to things that I was processing. People can't see me either, but I am that white evangelical sitting across from you, having this conversation. But my family, including my husband and all my children, are multiracial and multiethnic, and we've had challenges in our own church experience Trying to navigate that, not just in ethnicities, but neurodiversities and all kinds of things. Mhmm. How do we honestly create inclusion? And And I I think you helped articulate some of those things that we didn't know how to put language to. What's been the response from others, both visible minorities and also the white evangelical church who who you've come from with experience with? What has their response been to your work?

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:05:58

Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to get a sense of response, especially in our day and age and pandemic times. I don't travel around and and visit churches or or folks who are who are necessary, reading, but there is a sense around the work of decolonizing and deconstructing Christianity that this doesn't explain much, but it's in many ways at the forefront of the conversation. So folks are not quite there yet, but they certainly benefit from the naming. And so those are skills that many are looking for. I just don't have a name. I couldn't put into place what is happening, what is being incurred On my body, what is being absorbed, and so you feel it, and those are what I name in the book as that ain't right moments. And we all have this sense of, wait a minute.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:06:52

This this ain't right. And to be able to give name means you drag the things that aren't right into the light. And once you can name and make sense of what it is that is seeking to make you less whole in the church, From there, you can figure out pathways to a potential solution, pathways to wholeness. That's Not always easy, however, within the context of a traditional church.

Wendi Park [: 00:07:22

Yeah. And sometimes it can be Hard for people to relate who have not had a lot of exposure to diversity, period, to really know. But I think one of the things that I Try to help people when I'm speaking to people saying, remember a time where you felt you didn't belong? You felt like that stranger? We can all derive no matter what privilege we've come from, but we can all recall a time that we have felt outside. We have felt different from the when that ain't right you said moments. Mhmm. We we may all be able to identify it. However, I will put myself into that category so often, and I often say this. I can go almost anywhere and feel like I belong.

Wendi Park [: 00:08:06

Well I've been given this power almost that I didn't even ask for, but I'm part of this systemic racism that I've just Been given privilege, but we've all had those times where we feel like a stranger. And To the topic of this upcoming series that I'm so excited about, Loving the Stranger Among Us, we can often think, you know, the the Bible verse love your neighbor as yourself and Be a good neighbor. Well, often we reduce that within the church. It's like, I brought a casserole to the lady that had a baby, or I know so and so, and and I gave them a ride. Those are loving people that we already have included we feel belonging with. What I really wanna look at, in this series is Loving the one that we don't know, that we we feel we are strangers to, and trying to cross those divides because we can easily get ourselves off the hook and say, I'm a good person. I I was kind to so and so, but it can go within our cliques, And, we'd like to push beyond that. In your book, there's a quote that really stood out to me that I would love to dig into a little bit more.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:14

You've said belonging should be abundant, available to all so all may flourish and be whole. Can you expound on that Sense of belonging.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:09:24

Well, do you believe that? Like, do you believe that all people should be able to live out their whole selves, their gifts. They should be able to pursue their dreams that they have this liberation. So you said prior about everyone having these moments where they're the stranger, And that's true, but some more than others.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:54

Absolutely.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:09:55

And we need to interrogate within the church in what manner we have been formed in these bedrock ideas, like the DNA of the Canadian church. Doesn't matter what tradition you're part of. The DNA, The bedrock pieces that influence the manner we see the other. So an example would be right now, There's war breaking out in Israel and Palestine.

Wendi Park [: 00:10:18

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:10:18

And where your position is on that atrocity of war reveals in many ways what you think of the other.

Wendi Park [: 00:10:28

Yes.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:10:28

Do you dehumanize Certain people, Palestinians or Israelis, or do you look at the land that is under strife and say all should be able to belong and live out their whole selves. I think that's the Christian ethic. I think that's the call that Jesus is is drawing us towards. I would say that churches by and large in Canada don't have distinct Competencies and and leaders haven't been trained around this either of how to lead homogeneous churches into something that's more diverse. I don't also know if that's the right direction for churches that have been ingrained in the concept of sameness. Like, churches are are secure spaces. They are community. They're they're built out of some sense of Familiarity.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:11:24

So is that church gonna suddenly pick up the new ideas of how to become diverse? I don't think they will. I think that's too big of a leap.

Wendi Park [: 00:11:36

Why do you think that's a big of a leap? I'm wondering I'm just Wondering if if this lands with you, I wonder if underlying all of that, that's preventing us from diversity, preventing us from inclusion is fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of lack of control of what could be, fear of nuances and and gray spaces because it's easier to be black and white and say, thus I say it's this denomination then lean into those those hard spaces and sit with Yeah. With lament, sit with turmoil, sit with disagreements, and and be good at sitting in conflict.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:12:14

Yeah. And how many churches are good at sitting in conflict?

Wendi Park [: 00:12:17

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:12:18

So the notion of fear, yeah. Don't think it's across denominational lines. I don't think it's theological opinion, although that was part of of how you differentiated yourself back in grandma's church. Right?

Wendi Park [: 00:12:32

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:12:33

But today, it's not the same. Although the churches, I don't know, have shifted much. So there perhaps is a fear, but I think it's a fear of the other now and attributed to a fear of losing inherited power and privilege.

Wendi Park [: 00:12:47

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:12:47

That's a big fear. I think when you look at Canada and all the convoy and all the mess of of freedom and so forth like that, that's a real fear embedded and the notion of losing inherited power and privilege.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:00

Right.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:13:01

So how do you deal with that? And a lot of churches are are in the mix there of either tacit support or condoning. How do you hold those hard questions? And let's say even a community might hold differing opinions.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:16

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:13:17

How do you hold that well? So we haven't even breached To the outer walls of the church building yet, we're trying to deal with inside and how we might handle difference of ideas. Look at the question of of Affirming churches of whether or not you're going to include LGBTQ two plus folks. So Churches are splitting off, and denominations are fracturing right now as we speak because they will not affirm, and some don't want to affirm. So there's another example of how do we hold that.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:47

Well, and even more simplistic than that, will you wear a mask or not wear a mask? Will you do this or that? It's it's Become so divisive.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:13:56

Yeah. It's

Wendi Park [: 00:13:56

Well, I

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:13:56

think that one's lost.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:58

Mind boggling. Well, it is.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:13:59

Yeah. But There's there's no, like, church that Stopped very few churches that stopped meeting for the sake of including immunocompromised disabled bodies into their into their Community. That that's a great example. Very current example of how another intersection on disability, Churches are vastly incompetent and would rather go with the 99 rather than Mhmm. Stretch out for the 1. Oh, it's that's so wild. Oh, that's wild.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:28

Yeah. It it gets me every time, and I love the example that Jesus I know the answer's always Jesus, but I love the example how Jesus handled the context of his day. There was always people and I find even in my role, we work across denominations in a lot of different sectors, public sector, government, indigenous, sectors, we work with a lot of people around our table, but mostly from the church, I get these questions of what's our positioning on this? And what what they're asking is Can I work with you? Can we be friends? And what I I take from Jesus when he was working with Sadducees, Pharisees, and the people of his day, I verbed it. He Jesus is around these questions. What they're asking is not really what they're asking. They're they're trying to, like, peg you. And so I feel like, in the church, there's a need to kind of figure out what your positioning is. I would just love to say, could we just see people in the image of God as a theological premise to every other discussion? Because after that, everything's so nuanced, isn't it? It doesn't mean that we don't have theological convictions or we don't have our own experiences and Journeys that we've been walking through, it doesn't invalidate all that, but we could still stay at the table Even if we're disagreeing.

Wendi Park [: 00:15:49

Sorry. This is you just got me triggered here on a a good soapbox.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:15:53

Well, standing on a soapbox of image Bearing humanity, I think, is the core principle of Christianity.

Wendi Park [: 00:15:59

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:16:00

Not about whether we can save souls up into heaven in the clouds, but rather can we unlock the folding already unfolding kingdom of god and see that kingdom enable, open the door, Be a part of the flourishment of each of us so that we we all may live out their image bearing beauty. What we have instead are are many ideas, theological convictions that counter that.

Wendi Park [: 00:16:26

Amen. That could preach. I know you you mentioned the the current war situation, and that is just devastating to watch in our day and age, this happening, and and sometimes, people ask, so what what's your opinion as if there's, like, a which side are you on, or there is only one side if you're a Christian? And I I did peace mediation work in in Palestine, in the West Bank, and Israel, and in a time we were there were no tour buses. And all I can say is people are people, and destruction is destruction, and war is war. It's just It saddens me, but it's so nuanced. Anybody that gives a simple answer in response to a complex war like that, Anybody that can say straight out, this is my positioning and these people are good or bad, or these are on the outside or inside, It's revealing more incompetency than it is their understanding theologically of who we are and and who, humanity is Made in the image of God that it's it's a little more complex. We kinda get ourselves off the hook when we we try to polarize people, I believe.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:17:36

I think it's a reflection of theological competency. So you have that position because your theology either dictates or affirms it. And so in what manner do we say your theology and your traditions are actually causing harm?

Wendi Park [: 00:17:51

Yeah. Just as a a little, Preview for our listeners to what we are gonna be talking about in the upcoming 4 weeks. We're gonna look at the anatomy of a Stranger. And so each week, we're gonna have different, people coming onto the podcast. 1, we're gonna talk with the settled Stranger. We're gonna talk about colonization in the white church as as settlers, myself included, as settlers on this land. What does it mean To be settled strangers here in Canada, we're also gonna be talking about the estranged indigenous, Those that were from the First Nations and and Inuit peoples that are from this land, that have stewarded this land long before The nation of Canada was established. We're gonna have those conversations, and we're also gonna talk about the visible stranger.

Wendi Park [: 00:18:39

Those that you automatically See, oh, they don't look like us. They don't really fit into this. We're gonna look at a lot of different what does it look like? Who are we talking about? We're gonna talk with Some visible strangers. And then also, finally, we're gonna talk about the invisible strangers among us, those we alienate without even knowing. We wanna to have a conversation of what it means to love the stranger among us because so often the strangers among us hidden in plain sight. So I'm excited that we're going to be talking with individuals that would identify some estrangement in in their background, And we're gonna bring that to the church and have a rich conversation. Rohadi, I'd love to hear your perspective. I loved listening to you in the in the audiobook, But I would love for our listeners to hear a little bit more on your take on hospitality.

Wendi Park [: 00:19:29

You've been doing church planting. You've been doing hospitality. What does hospitality mean to you as a faith believer?

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:19:35

I think that for multiethnic folks, There is a default that you understand intersections better. That doesn't mean I get them all. So in the book, I do say in our context that there is a particular gaze that we hold up as dominant as normal, A straight white man and then a white woman after the after that, and then everything sort of trickles down. And we try to match that gaze, to say, okay. This is what normal or comfortable looks like or the gaze doesn't hit you like it doesn't to me. Although, patriarchy works for me pretty well. You know?

Wendi Park [: 00:20:16

Doesn't for me so much.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:20:17

That's right. That's right. So there's an intersection. So being alert to, and aware. And I have a chapter on wokeness, but I don't use that term. That's a term out of black tradition and culture. So being aware of these different intersections, like, for me in this past 3, 4 years, I've learned quite a bit more about My ableism. Right? My ingrained ableism.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:20:42

So there is, I think, a learning. Maybe think of your Church and how in Canada we have now seems to embrace more aspects of reconciliation in that work, In what manner you are drawing towards the learning aspects? Because I think that there is a learning aspect there. I'm not sure if you can jump all the way into well, let's just be more hospitable to the people who don't look like us because that falls into a couple of dangers. The first one is you will repeat the same systemic inequalities that you've always known. You actually have to do the internal work both individually and systemically, so individually and as a church together, To interrogate how you are embodying systemic problems because you don't wanna repeat those systemic problems When you go out and try to love people who don't look like you or not like you, the second part is the church is, and this is broadly speaking, A harmful place for those on the margins. So why would they ever trust you?

Wendi Park [: 00:21:46

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:21:47

I don't think they have to, and I think it's A harmful position for a church to just show up, and it used to act like this, probably still does, show up on scene and be like, hey. The church has arrived. We have all the answers, or come to our meal or come to our dinner or come to our one off event.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:03

But, Rohati, if if you just have enough bouncy castles and hotdog stands, Surely, they'll know they love you.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:22:09

The neighborhood will love you. I mean, think of the we had the biggest bouncy castle hot dog party, And we then wrote down the numbers for that, and we made it. So there's something deeper and more embodied than those one off events, which are which are fine, but they don't solve any systemic problem whatsoever. They don't actually draw you into deeper relationship, And that relationship piece is dependent on you, again, doing that work behind the scenes internally and also together systemically of figuring out how you have brought harm in the past and how you may draw in in a better way towards reconciling, Repairing unto right relationship. That's the key. The answer? I don't know if Churches have competencies again around those things. I don't even know if the denominational rep who's supposed to be about social justice or whatever it is that has these can come in and show you the way either. I just don't know if churches unless you've already been on the ground doing things well in certain Probably just a microcosm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:23:16

How are you going to extend into just a simple one thing? So I think it is Just that you have to try to figure out the simple one thing. Chances are you already have somebody in the congregation who's really good at hospitality, Or this is more likely, you have someone in the neighborhood community who's doing amazing things, and all you have to do is champion, come beside, Come behind and merely support that. Join. Church always likes to act as though it must own things, That justice only arise when the church does, none of those are true. And, certainly, Canadian culture has pushed to a point where we'll just operate Fine without a participating church. Let the church just operate on its own and and in its closed doors. But if we were able to join what was already unfolding, because the kingdom goes with or without a participating church, God doesn't need you. God doesn't need you.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:24:13

That is great if you embody and pick up the pieces and participate. Yeah. That's the point for sure, But God doesn't need us. So, yeah, maybe try to figure out the easy wins. These these can be easy wins. Join the things that you otherwise would have tried to own or your own ministry or outreach program or whatever. It's like, there's probably stuff already happening, and you can just jump on board.

Wendi Park [: 00:24:36

Yeah. That that's kinda you you kinda gave the elevator pitch for why Care Impact exists because the the care that we have is a tool that we've been working with. It's just a tool, but in areas that we've been partnering with churches and also frontline services, we've been, like, mapping out where Where are people doing good things, both in the faith sector and also within government, indigenous sectors, and all these nonprofits? There's a lot of people that are actually working with Competencies in their area, but they're needing community because at the end I came from nonprofit world. I knew there was never enough programming and And staffing and funding enough to to meet the the relational poverty needs that I was experience or seeing, amongst our clientele and our community, but we needed people to be people and relational. And so that's why we brought in the portal so that in real time, people in their neighborhoods would be able to know how to support a mom in reunification, how to help a youth that aging out in appropriate ways, and and that's why we're also dedicated. If we're gonna be bringing people to the the doorsteps, we have to do some competency building in our academy. And, we're pretty passionate about that because we can talk about hospitality, but unless it really Is at a relational level, at a core level, it just becomes programs and fluff. And I think people are asking for, for sure, serve social services And community are asking for an authentic church that could really meet them where they're at, where where the needs are.

Wendi Park [: 00:26:08

And I I don't know how many times in my previous work I've had these families, these refugee families with, like, 5 frozen turkeys And hampers, and those are all with good intentions, but they didn't know what these birds were, and they really just needed Somebody to have tea with, but if we could stop to ask. So I think, what I'm hearing from you is is a very relational call to hospitality. It's taking out the bells and whistles and really saying, how can I humanize, my community? Are there any other practical ways that you would Suggest even from your own experiences growing up in Canada that you would suggest our listeners to How they could love the strangers among us well?

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:26:53

A hard question because the default answer for the churches who even go this far, and many do not, is relationship, that reconciliation is relationship and so forth. But I've already said the caveat to that, and that's harm, and that the church is has long been known to bring harm to those on the margins. That's not to undo a lot of really neat, usually inner city churches that have been Doing stuff in the inner city forever, not to take away from any of those types of programs that are happening. But what does it mean to embody an ethic of hospitality? It tality. It certainly means that you also have an ethic that goes along with that of humility.

Wendi Park [: 00:27:39

Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:27:40

But if If you are known to bring harm as a whole, then you have to simultaneously be doing that internal work, And that's hard work, and I don't think a lot of church folks, a lot of Christians understand how hard it is to scratch at the bedrock pieces of our formation, and we can't see it if especially if you're white. You can't see what the bedrock formation is because to you, that's just normal. So if you're not interrogating white supremacy in the church, if you're not interrogating patriarchy, if you're not looking at what it means to be straight or how queer folks don't fit in, your ableism, so forth, so forth. If you're not Asking those questions, you can think about relationships, but at some point, you're gonna bring harm. So I'm reticent to participate with like, I wouldn't send anyone to a church if they needed stuff unless it was just straight up program Because that relational piece is so key, and and there needs to be a developed trust. So how do you get there? I don't know. I think it is indicative of how deeply, profoundly broken our churches are when it comes to hospitality. So find those in your community who are doing this work.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:29:04

It's like the parable of the wedding feast As Jesus shared about how the rich homeowner sent out His workers to say the wedding feast is ready. Invite all of the folks to come in. And then folks started to Give excuses. Remember this story? They started to give excuses. Oh, I just got married. Oh, I have to take care of my cows. Oh, and so the landowner's like, okay. This, infuriates me.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:29:37

Go out into the streets. And not merely go out into the streets. There's an added piece of go out into the countryside. So go out to the poor and then go to the really, really poor and invite them as well. And there's a critical piece of the story, and that is the employees, they might be even named slaves, they come back, and they say, well, we we we already did that. They don't come back, actually. The in the conversation, they say we already did that, And there's still room. So that's that's a clue to me in that this landowner, this the feast that was about to happen, And the host of the party is already known for having an expansive table that invites those on the margins, And those with privilege don't wanna participate with it, so they're out.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:30:28

He's already known to invite those on the margins. And so this is a picture of, I think and there are many interpretations, but I think of The feast table of god's kingdom, that god has already known that the last shall be first at this table. And so in what manner can we, as church, embody that ethic, wherein fact, we usually Try to satiate the demands of the most privileged who are at the table. So that's a real topsy-turvy kind of way that Jesus asks us to organize our communities. So, yeah, the answer is Jesus, Like you said at the start, and now we we draw it to the end. The answer is Jesus, but whose Jesus are you holding? Mhmm. Made in your image? Is it Jesus who only stands with certain people of certain nations, of certain wealth, of income. We have to ask ourselves those questions and Be ready to be transformed by a renewed, because hospitality is not new to us, but a renewed ethic of what it means to organize our communities that should exist for one another, to love one another, but also intentionally Excess for the other.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:55

Yeah. You know, I I was just in the Greater Toronto Area, a few days ago, and I I went to this theater, production by Tim. Google it. It's called My Little Plastic Jesus, and it's talking about some of those same constructs that we have created for ourselves that Embody Christianity in what makes us feel comfortable, us as in, my tradition in in my upbringing, my own experience, and And so much of that landed so deeply, and and I I do believe that we have the good news in all of this, Is that it is leaving people questioning. It's asking the right questions. It is getting people saying, k. Is this all there is to faith? And I think that that should be an encouragement. I hope that people do not feel discouraged when people are asking those tough questions because that is an actually invitation Down this journey of doing difficult things, having difficult conversations, becoming more competent as we lean in and ask the right questions, I think Where I'm more fearful of is people stop asking the questions.

Wendi Park [: 00:32:55

They become black and white, rigid, and and cutting people out of the conversation, Say you belong at this table of discussions and you do not. And so I hope it is encouraging for people to hear that where there are doubts, That's actually not a bad thing. We we need to be asking those questions, and I would just wanna encourage our listeners too to get Comfortable with discomfort, and you can certainly do that here on this series, with Journey With Care. We're gonna go into some really neat conversations, Not to threaten you, but to challenge each other. I know for myself, I am a white evangelical, and I love Jesus, But, I have been challenged, and I would say my teachers have been the people that Do not look like me, have not had the experiences for me, and I have to sit with and there's this transformation that happens that I'm I'm deeply indebted to.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:33:51

To respond to you, that's such a basic piece of where to go now and that you have learned from those who don't look like you, think like you, talk like you. That's a core principle, I think, if we have been shaped and formed. So for me, and this would be the same for many, even going to seminary. I mean, I was lucky it started to Crumble there, but why were all these books and podcasts weren't around? But, pastors, all white men, shaped and formed me.

Wendi Park [: 00:34:25

All Mhmm.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:34:27

And intentionally for the past 20 years to come out of that into a whole new set of thinking. So Mhmm. Yeah. I love your invitation. It's invitation into dwelling in those hard questions, but I think that there needs to be a Posture change in the church, especially one that is used to being at the forefront of being in charge, of being in power, That that power is no longer inherited, especially culturally now, unless you're only talking to people in your camp, That is eroded. So our posture, I think, changes to a place where we can play run support. You know, maybe your time is done at the forefront and your role now. You're not gonna figure it out in what time you have left, But you can incrementally shift and change, and those ought to be celebrated.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:35:18

And while that is happening, The posture is now to just support those who are leading now, and that's not always the church or those might be different churches, different leaders, different traditions. Do we have expansive vision for the kingdom of god to do such

Wendi Park [: 00:35:35

a thing? I hope so. Well and I know we have to conclude. We could keep talking about this, and I would love to have you back, but That note of that humility, having a a posture of humility is something that we can all lean into, And we've gotta start where we're at and really be open to God opening our eyes to not what we want to see ourselves as, but where we really are at and And being that student, it's okay as Christians. Yes. Jesus is the answer, but it's okay that we don't know all the answers, and that we can learn and listen and do our homework, Not necessarily making everybody else do the work for us for inclusion, but that we would be listeners and learners and humble and and hungry for for truth and hungry and humble to learn more of how God created others in his image and not in our own. And I just wanna encourage, maybe it's just a matter of, like, make that one call to action, like, maybe it's a prayer, maybe it's just inviting your neighbor over for coffee Or tea or what makes the go watch a soccer game. What is it that you can connect with? Because it's in those connection points that Jesus was calling out his disciples. It's in those connection points that Jesus sat with, not trying to make a project out of anyone, but he was with people, and they felt heard and seen.

Wendi Park [: 00:36:57

And so let's do that today. Let's find that person, and let's see those people that we don't have to even find them. They're right in front of us In the grocery aisle, let's see people as Jesus would see, and let's listen, and we don't have to have the the answers. Rohadi, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Again, we'll put the the links into our show notes, but hope people listen or or buy your books, read your books, Follow you on your your podcast, Faith on a Fresh Vibe, is it called?

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:37:26

Faith in a Fresh Vibe.

Wendi Park [: 00:37:28

Alright. Thanks so much for hiding.

Rohadi Nagassar [: 00:37:30

Thanks for

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:37:37

curious Canadians on their path of faith and living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community. Visit our website at journey with care.ca to connect with Care Impact, find the latest updates on our weekly episodes, details about our upcoming events, meetups, and information about our incredible You can also leave us a voice message, share your thoughts, and connect with like minded individuals

Wendi Park [: 00:38:08

who are

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:38:08

on their own journeys of faith and purpose. Thank you for sharing this podcast with your friends. Together, we can explore ways to journey in a good way, and always remember to stay curious.