Hope Beyond Measure | Out of Sync Christmas With Harold Park

Wendi Park [: 00:01:02

This 1st week of advent is all about hope. If you're craving hope and want more than shallow, wishful thinking, the You've come to the right episode. Today, I've got a special holiday treat to share with you. I have my husband, Harold Park, the Co founder of Care Impact and Jesus loving psychotherapist, he's in the studio with me for a behind the scenes perspective of hope. You could say he's a doctor of hope in some of people's most despairing moments. But before we dive into the conversation, let me tell you about this week's sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by DG inspired, your go to creative powerhouse for elevating your ideas into stunning reality. With your dreaming up, a brand refresh, an outstanding website, or eye catching graphics, DG inspired has got your back.

Wendi Park [: 00:01:49

Darlyn and her team have been creative geniuses behind Care Impact and can do the same for you. Head over to dginspire.com to bring your ideas to life. Alright. Let's get into the conversation. Harold Park, welcome to the podcast.

Harold Park [: 00:02:04

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:05

This is our 1st time together on this the Podcast. So it's good to have you here at the table, and I'm just itching to let other people hear a bit about your story. And today, we're gonna be talking about hope, the Advent Week of Hope. So, Harold, we know that you're a cofounder with me of Care Impact and that We've been raising our family here in Winnipeg, but let's go back a little ways of where you were born, a little bit of your upbringing. Let's start with that.

Harold Park [: 00:02:36

Sure. So I was born in Seoul, South Korea. And our family, we moved to Vancouver when I was 5.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:42

And how was that for you, of coming as a 5 year old immigrant to Canada.

Harold Park [: 00:02:47

Looking back, it was challenging because English wasn't my first language. It took a while to get used to Learning the language and then being able to fit into the culture.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:57

Yeah. And I guess that gives you a different feeling for other people coming to Canada that are new here.

Harold Park [: 00:03:03

Yeah. I do have memories of the challenges when I first got to Canada.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:08

What kind of challenges?

Harold Park [: 00:03:09

Well, I would say just Trying to fit in, trying to be like other people when I I look different than others. And so Having some level of acceptance, that was that was challenging for me. It took a long time actually for me to really feel like I fit in.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:27

Then you went on to university, and you chose food science, which I am grateful for. Our kids are grateful for because you're a great cook. That's part of our, our relationship story. You got me with with Pad Thai on the first try. But, tell us a little bit about what you to food science, and and where did that lead you in your career?

Harold Park [: 00:03:47

Yeah. When I was in university, I had a few options. But I really like food science, because food science, it incorporated a lot of things. So there's the science part of it, but there's also the creative side when you're involved with Creating new products, new food products. And so, I really wanted to get involved with product development and research as well. So, I thought that there were a lot of elements that really made it interesting.

Wendi Park [: 00:04:12

And so then, what jobs did you have?

Harold Park [: 00:04:15

Well, right after university, I started at a winery.

Wendi Park [: 00:04:18

So taken after Jesus. Right? Turning water into wine?

Harold Park [: 00:04:21

That's right. Yeah. And drinking it as well.

Wendi Park [: 00:04:24

You were drinking on the job, and that was your your job. That that's a very interesting job. But then you made a a career switch into the stock markets, And that's part of your story of hope as well. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey towards hope through being an investor?

Harold Park [: 00:04:43

Sure. So I was working in the winery for about 5 years. And around that point, I really felt like was getting a little bit stale with the job, and so I kinda dabbled in investing in the stock market. And, the Through that experience, I eventually left the winery position, and I became a full time stock investor. So the Worked at the winery for 7 years, and then for a good year and a half, I was just full time into the stocks. As I was investing in the stock market, things were going well for a while. But, after a while, the stock market was going down and it was really Depressing and really, I felt like there was no point to life. And it really was a difficult time in my life, which Looking back, it helped me quite a bit to go through the hardship and to go through the pain, because I realized that the path that I had chosen Really was a dead end.

Wendi Park [: 00:05:45

Right. Because you had been living the life. You were basically you could quit your day job. You could go golfing, go to the beach, go on trips to Hawaii, buy a new car. You were living the life. Was this your early thirties?

Harold Park [: 00:06:00

So this would have been my late twenties.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:02

Late twenties, and you were living like a a retired man living the life, and yet you felt this sense of emptiness.

Harold Park [: 00:06:10

That's right.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:10

And when the the market went down and you were starting to feel depressed, all this time, you hadn't been walking with the Lord, had you?

Harold Park [: 00:06:20

The No. At that time, I was I guess you could call it like a Sunday Christian. I was going to church mainly because my mom wanted me to go. And so I would go

Wendi Park [: 00:06:29

And baseball season.

Harold Park [: 00:06:29

Oh, yeah. Baseball season, I would go to to play on the the church softball team. But then once the season was over, then I I really didn't Attend church much. And so, yeah, I was really a a Sunday Christian at that point.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:43

And so what brought you to the Lord then?

Harold Park [: 00:06:46

Well, I would say the journey of investing in the stock market and being able to experience the things that I thought would fulfill, but I I realized that it it really didn't. It really left a big question mark in my life as to what direction I should go because I pursued what I thought would give me joy and and pleasure and satisfaction. But After barely a a year, I realized it didn't really do much for me, and so I had to figure things out. And it was really a time of wrestling With what I wanted to do, with what I felt maybe god was wanting me to do. So it was a really challenging point in my life. And so what happened there was, You know, I was attending church, and my pastor, he wanted to mentor me. He told me that he he wanted to to see me on a regular basis, To help me in my faith and help me in my career path. And so, thankfully, I was able to do that for months months.

Harold Park [: 00:07:43

And He provided me with some perspective on things, and that really helped shape my life to realize that, you know, money And the pursuit of happiness, that really wasn't the thing that would satisfy me. I realized that there was much more to it than that.

Wendi Park [: 00:07:59

And then you started volunteering that you had never done before in the east side downtown Vancouver with UGM. Correct? Mhmm.

Harold Park [: 00:08:07

Yeah. I was working with street youth, people that were homeless. And it really opened my eyes to the pain that's out there, the challenges that people face in life. It, opened my eyes to addictions, mental health issues, poverty. And through that experience, I realized that the I really felt this strong calling to help people in those situations. And, you know, I really wanted to, but I didn't know how. How how would I get involved in such endeavors like that.

Wendi Park [: 00:08:37

And how would you provide hope to some of these very hopeless situations. Right?

Harold Park [: 00:08:42

That's right. Yeah. I just didn't feel equipped. I I had a desire, but I didn't feel equipped.

Wendi Park [: 00:08:47

So it's interesting. Even though you had it all prior, when you were helping people in some of the most hopeless situations. That's where you found your calling and purpose, and and you found hope for your own future that led you all the way to Manitoba. You came to Providence Seminary, which is where we met. And, was that a hard decision for you to come into Winnipeg?

Harold Park [: 00:09:10

Well, you know, I knew that Winnipeg was cold, but I didn't know it would be that cold. And so on one hand, I felt like I was called to come out here, but on the other hand, I was scared. I didn't know what my future would hold. I didn't have the financial means to finish my program at the time I left Vancouver. So I was basically going on faith And and hope that god would provide a way.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:37

Yeah. And that has opened a lot of doors for you because of that act of faith, Of stepping out, standing on the hope that you had been given from God to help others and to be equipped by that. Tell us your first, Experience working as a chaplain in the the prisons here in Manitoba.

Harold Park [: 00:09:59

Yeah. So after my 1st year in my master's of counseling program, I was able to work in a prison. So I was working with male offenders. And, you know, in that environment, I really learned a lot about the despair in people's lives, the hopelessness, and it really gave me a a really close Look at how people view the world. And, it it really was eye opening for me, because I really wasn't familiar with that type of life.

Wendi Park [: 00:10:29

I imagine that when you're sitting with people in maximum security that are in really, really Desolate times that hope might feel hard to come by. What gave you hope In those situations beyond just a wishful thinking, I wish you well. But was there hope in those really the The most difficult situations.

Harold Park [: 00:10:55

Yeah. There's this one situation where I met with a a young man in his late Teens. And, he had just come in. He was charged with taking the lives of his family members. And so, Of course, you can imagine he was very distraught. And so I was sitting with him and I was trying to comprehend the situation. What could I say to him that would help him in that moment? And, really, at that point, it was one of those feelings where I felt like There were really wasn't much that I could offer him myself. And it was just one of those things where you feel helpless, in those situations.

Harold Park [: 00:11:39

But as I reflected on his situation, it it really brought to mind that There is nobody that is beyond the reach of god. Regardless of what someone has done, the situations that they've been through, I still felt That there was hope through God in this really desperate situation.

Wendi Park [: 00:11:58

Have you been in in circumstances, let's say, in the prisons? I know you you do more counseling outside the of the prisons. We'll get to that. But let's say in the prisons, have you seen examples where people in hopeless situations Actually found experience the hope of god.

Harold Park [: 00:12:15

Definitely. I was doing chapels in 2 different institutions on a weekly basis. And through those opportunities, I was able to connect with inmates and to to realize that within inmates, there is a A drive. There's a motivation to find hope in life, even through the darkest of times. And I realized that, you know, it's not just about wanting to do something, but it's also about having a way to Apply your motivation to find like, I I always call it way power, a way to do it as well as willpower. So they have the willpower And then there is way power. And if you have those 2 elements, that really contributes to providing hope.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:04

And what a powerful ingredient to bring into very desperate situations that whether we're called to be prison chaplains or Be in the midst of a crisis or or walk through somebody's trauma with them or whatever the situation may be that we actually can access hope that is outside of this world, that overextends whatever circumstance that they are not beyond the reach of God, the The situation is not beyond the eyesight of God, that there is hope that comes from outside of this world that can transcend, that it's It's those kingdom come moments that happen. And I remember volunteering at some of those, chapel services with you and experiencing that hope. Yeah. Their sentences weren't changing. Their circumstances of the past, they couldn't change. And the situation looked bleak in people's lives, but yet I saw hope as they reached out to God. And that is a powerful, powerful thing. You're also an adoptive dad, And you are fathering children that have come from all kinds of different backgrounds, and we're not gonna go into that here.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:20

But I wanna ask about your experience as an adoptive dad. Where is that source of hope as a father in that adoption experience?

Harold Park [: 00:14:30

Yeah. When I reflect upon my journey as an adoptive father, I realize that I would have been gone a long time ago had it not been through God's leading and direction in my life to be able to navigate these situations that are really beyond me. The traumas that our kids have gone through, the abandonment issues. Things like that are very challenging for just a regular human to to deal with, as a parent. But it's really through my understanding of god's promises for each of us, his ability to provide The hope for our healing, restoration of relationships. These type of things, really, I've had to Rest upon that hope in god for for these things.

Wendi Park [: 00:15:18

And that's sort of ties in with some of your doctoral dissertation research On looking at resiliency for Christian adoptive parents, of looking beyond yourself. Right? Give us a glimpse a little bit of what that research showed you.

Harold Park [: 00:15:34

Well, really, what this research showed for Christian adoptive parents, there was a need to go beyond yourself, not just relying your own ability to handle stress or to deal with challenging situations, but to be able to realize that There are opportunities to to deal with situations through turning to god or turning to people in your community that are like minded, turning to resources that are out there. So these type of things are What I mentioned earlier, it's the way power. Like, how do we go about combining our motivation, our way power with Willpower. So the willpower, it's something that we have from within, but we also need the way power, the the methods, the tools to be able to implement to then Have the hope that we are really longing for.

Wendi Park [: 00:16:25

And so that's really, in essence, what you do today in your psychotherapy practice. You are meeting people in some of their most despairing times. In fact, they often don't pick up the the phone or they don't send an email. They don't book an appointment until they're really at their wits' end. So what gives you hope To keep showing up for these people that have despair after despair after despair. What is some of the way power? Like, how do you Practically help them through so it's not just wishing you well or now I've heard you, and I hope that soothes you for the moment, But actually help. You you see healing, but what gives you that hope?

Harold Park [: 00:17:08

Oftentimes, when I meet with people for the first time, they're Kind of like at the end of their rope, they're reaching a point of hopelessness for change. And so with the people that I meet, couples, individuals, They're grasping for hope. This is what they're longing for. And through that, if people can have that sense of hope, that that little spark within them, challenges, and hope is really hard to to really hold on to. A lot of challenges, and hope is really hard to to really hold on to. But in terms of how do I go about Working with individuals and couples. I think one of the first things that I do is to be able to look at their situation with a sober mind, to be able to look at it in a well rounded way so that they see the strengths that they have, They see the abilities that they have, they see the resources that they have to be able to work on their situation. Because oftentimes people come into counseling And they focus on their weaknesses, their challenges, but they sometimes forget that, you know, they've endured challenges in the past, and they've overcome those challenges.

Harold Park [: 00:18:22

And so I need to be able to help remind people that, Yes. Each person is uniquely created with their gifts and abilities, and they do have the potential to use that in a way that can really help them through their situation.

Wendi Park [: 00:18:39

Yeah. So that you really point out they have agency. There there is possibility, Not just hypothetical and painting rainbows and unicorns in the sky for them. Right? That's wishing well. But you're actually able to discover that with them. What are the strengths? What are some opportunities that they can make choices in? You have a lot of strategies. I think you from what I understand, you bring a lot of different strategies and methodologies together So that there's a practical way forward to finding hope. Hope isn't just some theoretical, theological concept.

Wendi Park [: 00:19:16

It's right there in the room. It's right there in that interaction. And you see them week to week, so tell me what that's like to walk through That journey towards hope with people.

Harold Park [: 00:19:28

Yeah. So I do provide what I said before the the way power. Like, how do you go about Producing change through either techniques or tools or interventions, those type of things. I can provide that. Of course, they would need to provide the willpower. And there is another element, which is the weight power. So the weight power means that change doesn't happen instantaneously. Sometimes it takes weeks, months, years to be able to see change.

Harold Park [: 00:19:55

And we need to be able to have that weight power, to be patient, to know that change takes time. And so with these 3 elements, hopefully, we can be able to see the changes happening within their lives For me to be able to provide support, encouragement in this journey with them, those are some key things, to be able to believe that they are able to do what they set their mind out to do. So to be supportive, to be encouraging, I think that's really a a key element.

Wendi Park [: 00:20:25

I like that because you are Bringing your whole self. You are a person of faith who is grounded in the word of God. You have hope in God as you're leading people with faith or without faith in these situations. But you're not just making it some kinda abstract, I wish you well. I think one of the dangers is that we can spiritually bypass On people's most despairing moments. Like, throw them a verse. Say I'm praying for you. Prayer is good, but we we throw these flippant things and, like, god is more powerful and all these different verses.

Wendi Park [: 00:21:01

His strength is greatest in your weakness, And it doesn't feel very hopeful in those situations if we just spiritualize it without giving them concrete tools, concrete ways forward and really being present in that despair.

Harold Park [: 00:21:18

Yeah. Spiritual bypass is a thing that I see often in the Christian community. And, you know, it's a way to really prevent oneself from going deep, to go deep into their feelings, to go deep into their thoughts, Because oftentimes, those are scary places. People don't wanna be reminded of the trauma or the hardships that they've had, and so they go quickly to god looking for a quick fix. But ultimately, for deep healing, we do need to go to those places where it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of energy to be able to process and to make sense of things. And through that journey, I believe that's gonna provide A richer, deeper level of healing if we can get to those dark, deep places.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:05

And I notice as you walk with people, You have learned a level of peace and patience To sit with people in their distress without needing to be their fixer, without needing to have all the answers. And I've learned from that that we don't have to have the right answer Or come up with a solution right away. Obviously, if we can help, we wanna do that. But you've been sitting with people in their distress. Is that intentional?

Harold Park [: 00:22:44

For sure. You know, I think one of the key things about helping people is not to impose our agenda on the people that we're trying to help. Not to feel like they have to change a certain way or they have to change according to our timing, But to realize that there is a plan for their life, there is a timing for their life to change and to heal. And I don't know exactly what that looks like, But I really want to be journeying with them in terms of what does healing look like for that individual. Perhaps God has a plan for them that really I don't know. But I wanna be in alignment with what is it that god would want for this person in their healing journey. So I really have to be mindful of setting aside my agenda. Like, of course, I have a strategy how to help them, But I have to really walk closely with that person to navigate through the the challenges that they're dealing with, to not rush them, to not not challenge them at times.

Harold Park [: 00:23:44

It it's necessary at times to challenge people. It's necessary at times to go slowly through those hard Discussion. So it really is a matter of being attuned to your client.

Wendi Park [: 00:23:56

And that is a picture of what God does with us. God is a hopeful filled god, and yet he is patient, and he is kind. He is present. He's Emmanuel god with us, Walking with us in our pain and going at the pace of relationship, and it's neat to see that emulated in your counseling practice. Now I wanna have a a deeper look at hope. This is our our week's focus. We're looking at hope or is it wishful thinking?

Harold Park [: 00:24:29

The Now if we look in the biblical

Wendi Park [: 00:24:29

God's faithfulness. In Psalm: 3020

Wendi Park [: 00:24:59

May your constant love be with us, lord, as we put our hope in you. So what I'm hearing here is that this hope is resilient in even the most challenging circumstances.

Harold Park [: 00:25:12

You know, when the 2 of us when we were planning to adopt, you know, we took a big step forward of faith.

Wendi Park [: 00:25:19

This. Right in the beginning when we didn't know anything about it. Right?

Harold Park [: 00:25:23

Yeah. We did our research. We we prayed through it. And so we started the process, And it was quite the journey. You know, we went through our ups and downs. We went through our ups and downs with the provincial government, Looking at adoption internationally, locally, it was an emotional roller coaster. And during those 4 years when we were Really in limbo, I wondered about, is this the plan that god would want for us to adopt? And at times, I I had my doubts. I had disappointments.

Harold Park [: 00:25:59

There was sadness. But during that time, I felt a strong calling that god wanted us to persevere through this, to have hope.

Wendi Park [: 00:26:10

I remember that because we distinctly felt called to older child adoption. And while we were new at this, we just really felt all our whole family felt called to adopt older children that were in need of families. And then the government said, you can't do that. You can't, adopted a birth order. It felt very hopeless, but I'm like, but god, I thought you had this for us. And it felt kinda hopeless, didn't it? But god. And fast forward to those 4 years, we have had not 1, but 4 older children join our family. In addition to our 2 biological children and God's promises rang true.

Harold Park [: 00:26:54

Yeah. I think just looking back at this Journey, I could never have imagined that we'd be where we are today. But for god's faithfulness, we've gotten to this point. And so When I look back, I really did feel hopeless. But I know that through the rough times, that really helped build my relationship with god, my ability to trust in him, to put hope in him. And that's carrying me throughout these days when there's some challenges going on with our family. I'm reminded of that hope that I had way back, and I know that that hope will continue to carry me through the challenges of today and tomorrow.

Wendi Park [: 00:27:36

And that hope doesn't mean that everything goes well or that everything goes as perfectly as people would wish, but we're anchored in this connectedness to God's promises that he will never leave us or forsake us, that he is with us through those things. He's with us in those despairing moments. He's in the in the helm of the boat, sleeping possibly, but he could just the Speak over the waves and they will come, but he is with us even in those stormy times. And that has really Anchored us in those those turbulent times and the times that we still face as a family, but we we navigate through that knowing that Jesus is our hope. The There's also this counterfeit hope that is an easy trap to fall into. It looks optimistic, and we can heartily believe that the outcome is possible, but it's not really anchored in God. It's actually more like wishful thinking, though. And I wonder sometimes if some of our Christmas Christian endeavors that we keep ourselves busy with at Christmas is more about spreading good vibes only, that Christmas cheer, this wishful Thinking, I want things to be rosy and well, wishing good things on people, but not necessarily anchored in our belief in God.

Wendi Park [: 00:28:57

In James 2, it says, suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, Go. I wish you well. Keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs. What good is it? And we can wish peace and harmony in this world. We can wish that there would be no homelessness. We could wish that families would would get back together. We can wish that there would be peace and harmony in our circumstances.

Wendi Park [: 00:29:23

We can wish that people would have prosperity in their lives where there is poverty.

Harold Park [: 00:29:28

Yeah. There is a difference between someone having optimism and someone having hope. Because optimism is Focusing on just wishful thinking, just having, an optimistic outlook on things.

Wendi Park [: 00:29:42

And I think it's good to be optimistic, the But it's not

Harold Park [: 00:29:46

hope. Right?

Wendi Park [: 00:29:47

Yeah. Yeah. So what would it look like in your counseling sessions, Harold? Let's say a couple's on a brink divorce or a youth is contemplating suicide or you have somebody going through a real mental health challenge, And all of these are things that you deal with on a daily basis. How are you offering hope in these spaces?

Harold Park [: 00:30:10

I think first and foremost, it's important to be able to allow the person to To know that I'm there with them, to to know that they're being supported and encouraged, that they're not alone, and that I see worth, I see value in the individual. Because oftentimes, people without hope do not have a healthy level of self esteem. So I think The first thing is to really help them to know that they have value as a person. And through that, It's gonna be important to help point out those anchors. What are the strengths that they have? What are the resources that they have? So that they can Work through some of these challenges to know that there are ways to find healing, ways to be able to to grow as a person, to be able to Healed relationships.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:02

And I think the more that a person is present in those situations with others who are feeling a sense of hopelessness. It might be easier to not wanna go to the depth of their pain. And yet going to those places, if you are equipped for it, can be healing. Right? It's like any doctor wouldn't just suture up A wound without cleaning that or going to those places of removing extracting some of those things that are causing that pain. The Can you talk a little bit what it's like to walk through the pain with people so that they can get to new levels of hope?

Harold Park [: 00:31:45

Yeah. That's a very delicate process of journeying with people through their past. And so I think, a key thing is just to be able to discern the level of tolerance, the ability to deal with, challenging topics. And to be able to find the appropriate levels of communication, to be able to to deal with those things, because We don't want to go beyond what people are able to handle in that moment. So it's important to work with the client To be able to know what they could handle emotionally and to be able to challenge people in various areas, but still work within their window of tolerance.

Wendi Park [: 00:32:29

So what advice would you give us as everyday community members? We're not all gonna be psychotherapists, and we shouldn't. There's the There's reason why we have people in in this profession, but how can we become better at living with authentic hope Rather than the pseudo optimism and pushing things under the rug.

Harold Park [: 00:32:51

Yeah. I think one of the things that I try to encourage people to do is really To look outside yourself. Because sometimes when we're dealing with challenges, we think that we need to come up with all the solutions. But in reality, there are things out there. There are people out there. There's faith. There's a lot of elements that can help people find the hope To move forward with their life.

Wendi Park [: 00:33:14

So, Harold, I'd love for you to think of all the many clients that you work with day in and day out. Everyday community members, whether they know their story or not, maybe they're in the grocery aisle, maybe they're in our church, maybe they're in our small the group. They're not hearing the depth of what you're going through with them. How would you love to see the community respond?

Harold Park [: 00:33:36

You know, what I would really like to see is the community to be able to be aware of what's going on around them. Because oftentimes, we're really focused on our own life. We we wanna move forward with situations about us. But, You know, there are people out there that are hurting, that are struggling, and I think it it does take effort to be able to To notice these things, to to see when someone is feeling down, to be able to take time to spend with someone over coffee. And so I think just being able to just open up our eyes to our surroundings, people within our circles and really take time to to be aware of what is happening with others. I think that that would be a real blessing.

Wendi Park [: 00:34:24

So I'm not trained in in psychotherapy. Are there ways that I can spread hope in my community?

Harold Park [: 00:34:32

I believe that we are all a part of providing hope for others, that, we are all in this journey together. And so I think that one of the key things is to really use what gifts, abilities that you have as an individual And to be able to impart those things to others, to help them feel encouraged or supported or loved. And we all are wired differently. We all have different strengths. And so just to be able to find within yourself, what is it that can contribute to providing that that little spark of hope for those around you.

Wendi Park [: 00:35:10

Now let's say I am feeling hopeless in life circumstances. And I really am grasping at straws, really wanting to see, God's the Promises come through, but I am losing hope. What advice would you give me in those moments?

Harold Park [: 00:35:29

As Christians, we really need to turn to to god's words and his promises. As we look through The Old and New Testament. We realize that there are so many promises that god has for us and for his people, and to be Able to know that those promises hold true for us as well. And so as we are in those times of despair, in the times of hopelessness, I think that we really need to turn to the foundation of of our faith and and of our hope.

Wendi Park [: 00:36:02

Well, thank you, doctor Harold Park, for spending this time in this episode to explore hope, and we just really appreciate your wisdom and the experiences that you bring. And we look forward to future episodes where we're exploring the advent season.

Harold Park [: 00:36:17

Thank you, Wendi. It's been really great to be here and to be able to share some of my thoughts about hope.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:36:24

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