Leading Differently Together | "Shepherds" With Rev. Vincent Solomon
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Description
We sit down with Rev. Vincent Solomon to delve into the theme of finding and fulfilling one's purpose within the church. Host, Wendi Park guides the conversation through Vincent's insightful perspectives on self-discovery, the value of Godly counsel, and the empowering role of leadership in the church.
Vincent, hailing from the Epiphany Indigenous Anglican Church, discusses the unique integration of Cree traditions with Christian practices and the significance of community in recognizing and affirming one's gifts. The episode touches on the pastoral responsibilities of providing comfort, security, and support to congregants, while Vincent opens up about his personal journey of embracing his indigenous identity within his ministry. The conversation also tackles the sensitive issues of racism, historical oppression, and the call to authenticity that has shaped Vincent's role as a priest.
Through touching stories and personal experiences, this episode of Journey With Care highlights the transformative power of inclusivity and the beauty of leading differently together.
Time Stamps
[04:20] High school grad, theological training, life's journey.
[06:41] Building connections with kids improved academic performance.
[10:53] Ostracized due to racism, led to self-change.
[15:04] Studying scripture for cultural and personal relevance.
[16:02] Allow members to be themselves, despite challenges.
[20:18] Developed skill in listening from elders' teaching.
[22:35] God wants to bring you out of exile.
[28:06] Walking together is countercultural; encourage pastoral calling.
Guest Links
Epiphany Indigenous Anglican Church https://www.rupertsland.ca/winnipeg-north-west/epiphany-indigenous-anglican-church
Other Links
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Transcript
It seems to me out there within indigenous Christian
Speaker:space that there seems to be this polarity
Speaker:between being indigenous and being Christian and that the 2
Speaker:cannot meet. And if they do come together, they only
Speaker:together to a certain point. Well, how can I
Speaker:be all of this? What does
Speaker:loving your neighbor actually look like? This is
Speaker:Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to love
Speaker:others well through real life stories and honest
Speaker:conversations. Hey, curious Sojourners. We're
Speaker:continuing in our series Leading Differently Together, and I'm so
Speaker:glad you're on this journey with me as we're meeting up with some fascinating
Speaker:people from across Canada who are living in their sweet spots,
Speaker:making an impact in their God given wiring. And in
Speaker:Ephesians 4 11 to 12, it says, God
Speaker:gives some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds,
Speaker:and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry,
Speaker:for building up the body of Christ. But what does that
Speaker:look like in Canada? You'll have to keep listening to find out. Today,
Speaker:we're gonna get curious about shepherding. I'm your host, Wendi Park, joined
Speaker:by producer Johan Heinrichs. And in studio today, we have a
Speaker:very special guest in Winnipeg, Manitoba on Treaty 1
Speaker:territory, my friend and brother, Vince Solomon.
Speaker:Vince, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's so good to have you
Speaker:here. Yeah. Good to be here. Yeah. So, Vince, you and I met
Speaker:a couple years ago, I think on at some conferences we
Speaker:were speaking at together. Was that right? Well, I had invited
Speaker:you to, be a part of a conference that I had
Speaker:arranged. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You tagged
Speaker:me first, and I was honored to be part of that Anglican conference,
Speaker:talking about houselessness and homelessness. I remember that. And I think
Speaker:I tagged you back, and you spoke at a couple events, and
Speaker:I've we've had some mutual connections, since then. So,
Speaker:Vince, I would love for, you to share a little bit about
Speaker:yourself just so our audience is aware. You are a priest
Speaker:with the Anglican church situated here in the
Speaker:city of Winnipeg. Mhmm. You have been pastoring, but you've done
Speaker:many things before that leading you up to this pastoral
Speaker:position. Can you tell us a little bit of your story into
Speaker:pastoring? I started when I was about,
Speaker:well, I didn't start pastoring when I was 10, but the the
Speaker:calling came from from God when I was 10. I
Speaker:was sitting in the back of a church, and I remember looking
Speaker:at the priest, the minister that was there preaching, And I
Speaker:was just sitting there being a good boy, otherwise I get spanked
Speaker:or something afterwards when I got home. But
Speaker:anyway, I was just sitting there and I don't know what the priest was talking
Speaker:about, but I just looked up and then all of a sudden it's like God
Speaker:saying to me, you know, that's who you're going to be. That's what you're
Speaker:gonna do one of these days. Wow. At 10 years old?
Speaker:At 10. Yeah. And had you grown up in the faith where your
Speaker:was your family of multigenerational Christians? Yes. What was that
Speaker:experience? Yep. My mother used to take me to church. My father,
Speaker:Rael, he kind of, he believed, but just
Speaker:didn't go to church. Mhmm. I think part of that, I
Speaker:think, is because he he didn't understand the English.
Speaker:Back then, we we used to in the Anakin church, we used to use this.
Speaker:We still do in some places, the book of common prayer, which is very Elizabethan
Speaker:language. 1,000,000, these and, you know, those kind that kind of
Speaker:language. But I grew up, became a teenager, left the
Speaker:church because it was boring and didn't go to church for a while.
Speaker:And then, eventually though, God called me back
Speaker:again. So 1982 when I was 18 years old
Speaker:was when God, once again,
Speaker:imprinted into my heart that it was him that I needed.
Speaker:And so that was when I decided, okay. Yeah. This is this is
Speaker:something that I want to do, to follow Jesus.
Speaker:But I the whole calling never left me. Even as a
Speaker:teenager, it never left me. And so when I
Speaker:graduated from high school, I came down to Winnipeg
Speaker:for theological training. But at that
Speaker:time, you had to first get a bachelor of arts.
Speaker:And so went to the University of Manitoba for that.
Speaker:From there, graduated, went to St. John's College,
Speaker:and life happened in a very major way. So
Speaker:I wandered around the desert, as it were, for for quite a
Speaker:while, for a number of years, until eventually
Speaker:I came back again to a new
Speaker:place, but a renewal of that calling. So
Speaker:I, then went and
Speaker:approached the Bishop of Rupersland and said, I do believe
Speaker:I had a calling about this. And and so he he sent
Speaker:me off. And, the way that it works in the Anglican church is that you
Speaker:have to be a member of a congregation, at least for for a period of
Speaker:time. Mhmm. And then you had to be called from the congregation.
Speaker:So they would affirm your calling in in the pastoral
Speaker:Yes. Yeah. I was at Saint Benedict's table, and, so I was
Speaker:a member there for for a number of years. I'm not quite sure how it
Speaker:happened. Somehow, Jamie, the priest at the
Speaker:time, heard of my calling, I suppose. And then we had a
Speaker:conversation of where I was with that. Eventually,
Speaker:he asked me to go and talk to the bishop, and that is what I
Speaker:did. And then the bishop then sent me off
Speaker:to, what is called ACPO, for Anglican
Speaker:postulants, they call them, to see whether or not the calling that I
Speaker:had was from God. So I did that,
Speaker:and they affirmed that, yes, indeed, that there was a
Speaker:calling from God. Long story short, I got ordained,
Speaker:was first working with the St. James' sissen boy school
Speaker:division, and I was their aboriginal liaison. And then I taught some
Speaker:cultural courses on indigenous spirituality and
Speaker:culture. But I imagine you brought that pastoral heart into
Speaker:how you were teaching as well. Right? Yeah. Because you have a very
Speaker:pastoral nature. Like, it doesn't, surprise me at all
Speaker:since an early childhood because it seems so much a part of
Speaker:who you are Yeah. In your pastoral presence.
Speaker:Yeah. I I really love the kids because I I talked
Speaker:from kindergarten all the way to grade 12,
Speaker:and I went to all 26 schools within the school division. I
Speaker:started sharing circles. And so I got to meet a
Speaker:lot a lot of students, lots of kids,
Speaker:indigenous as well as not some non indigenous kids. They used to
Speaker:come and kinda throw these kids into into my
Speaker:into my space and say, fix this person, right, or
Speaker:fix him. But that wasn't what I was trying to
Speaker:do. But it eventually ended up in a in a very
Speaker:good way for the students. The academic achievement of those
Speaker:particular students who were in the sacred in the searing circles
Speaker:went up exponentially. So it just it just rose.
Speaker:As they found belonging and and identity in those groups.
Speaker:Within community. Right. Within community. And where they felt safe,
Speaker:unwanted, and in many cases, needed
Speaker:for for who they are, for their gifts. Right? And and they
Speaker:found a voice. And some of them really realized that,
Speaker:hey, I'm not stupid. Right? That I I can do this. So
Speaker:I worked there for a number of years and then the nature of the job,
Speaker:of course, being the only one that does this work there at the
Speaker:time, Now it's a big program. Right. But at the time,
Speaker:I got very tired. Sure. Like burnt out.
Speaker:That's a lot of caregiving Oh. To a lot of people
Speaker:wandering through their own deserts. I'm curious
Speaker:as you were leading these these sharing circles and in
Speaker:reverend Vince then. You you were as a pastor or reverend Vince
Speaker:then. You you were as a instructor or a a
Speaker:facilitator of these sharing groups. How did you yourself come
Speaker:to terms with your own indigeneity and and some
Speaker:of your calling and helping other people? Because I I think often we
Speaker:can only lead people through Right. To successful ends
Speaker:where we are willing to go ourselves. Like, what was that process like as you
Speaker:were walking with other students to lead
Speaker:them? Well, I was learning quite a bit alongside
Speaker:them. This was a journey that I had been on, well, since I was
Speaker:born, I suppose. And then my grandfather
Speaker:who had gone to residential schools after he left the schools was a
Speaker:very traditional man. Mhmm. He
Speaker:taught me and tried to teach my
Speaker:other cousin who was my the same age as me.
Speaker:And but I think I was the only one that ever really was
Speaker:into into listening. So it helped me quite a quite a
Speaker:bit about our tradition, our people. Some of our ceremonies, not
Speaker:much because especially with elders. Right? They will
Speaker:teach you what you need to know at the time, and that's what he was
Speaker:like. And so but he died when I was 18 years old.
Speaker:So I didn't get to learn more of the
Speaker:this is what it looks like to be a man. Right? There
Speaker:was some, but as I was entering manhood.
Speaker:So Did you feel the freedom to explore that
Speaker:while still engaged in the church, or was that part of
Speaker:your wandering out of the church for that season? You always
Speaker:kept coming back, but did they come together Yes. When you're growing up?
Speaker:Yes. Especially, you know, the worshiping pieces, that
Speaker:certainly was there. The fact that my grandfather
Speaker:instilled in me, this sense of pride, I suppose,
Speaker:or not pride, to be proud of who I am, as
Speaker:an indigenous person. But, however, though, the
Speaker:church was very good at, saying
Speaker:no to indigenous spirituality. So
Speaker:and a lot of the stuff I just kept to myself because I really didn't
Speaker:feel that I had the freedom to be able to express
Speaker:them at least within the church context. And so I just kind
Speaker:of I did the church thing, but I also was was very
Speaker:native. And then I came to Winnipeg. Oh my goodness.
Speaker:There was a lot of racism. There was an x on my dorm
Speaker:door, so I was ostracized because I was native.
Speaker:And so I became quite not ashamed, but rather I
Speaker:wanted to change. I wanted to hide that. I wanted to be
Speaker:different. I didn't want to be thought of
Speaker:as an indigenous person because I was told to go down to down
Speaker:downtown Winnipeg, and then I'll be able to see what indigenous people are
Speaker:like. Right? And so I didn't like what I
Speaker:saw, so I changed myself,
Speaker:my hair style for 1, and just the way
Speaker:I I dressed. And and also I decided to get rid
Speaker:of my, northern native accent. So
Speaker:it comes back whenever I'm back home. It does come
Speaker:back, but, yeah, I made it a point to do that. And
Speaker:then when I was working at St. James School Division, I was, at the
Speaker:same time, relearning the traditions that I had.
Speaker:And then during one time when we were doing smudging, I had
Speaker:gone through the ceremony because an elder was teaching us what it
Speaker:meant. And, I mean, I knew already what it
Speaker:was. Just at this time, I I did go through it.
Speaker:And then I was sitting outside in the
Speaker:back of the house, and I was
Speaker:apologizing. To who? To God. I was saying
Speaker:I'm sorry in repenting, I suppose, would be
Speaker:a more of a better word of what I had done. I thought
Speaker:that I had committed some major sin.
Speaker:And, once again, it was, you know you know, how we hear God,
Speaker:right Yeah. Within our hearts. God said to me, when
Speaker:did I ever ask you to stop being Cree?
Speaker:So you were apologizing for being Cree? No. I
Speaker:was apologizing for doing Cree
Speaker:things. Okay. And part of being Cree
Speaker:is having these traditions
Speaker:and teachings and carrying them and living them
Speaker:out. Right? And so those kinds of things I had
Speaker:decided I didn't really need to do anymore.
Speaker:Right? So I just kinda put them aside. Mhmm. But I think, oh, what God
Speaker:was saying to me was that, well, I never told you to just
Speaker:lay this part of you aside. Right? This is part of who you
Speaker:are as a Cree person. And so from there,
Speaker:I went on this journey of figuring
Speaker:out what it was within my tradition and my culture that
Speaker:was that was great and wonderful and that could be brought into the
Speaker:church or a part of my ministry, And it turns
Speaker:out, everything is. Well, that's actually
Speaker:part of our friendship began in my interest to see
Speaker:you holistically yourself in a pastoral role.
Speaker:And I love what I see the way I see
Speaker:you pastoring your congregation and bringing
Speaker:your indigeneity and not in a performance cultural kind of
Speaker:now we'll have a cultural aspect to it. Right. But it feels very
Speaker:authentic. And a congregation member knows when they're being
Speaker:ministered to by a pastor out of performance or out of this
Speaker:is their heart. It it exudes out of you, and that's what I
Speaker:see right now in in in what you're doing. Yeah. Well, part
Speaker:part of being a pastor, right, is being just the regular things that we all
Speaker:know to lead, to teach, and and to feed. Right? So
Speaker:it seems to me out there within indigenous Christian
Speaker:space that there seems to be this polarity
Speaker:between being indigenous and being Christian. Right? And that the
Speaker:2 cannot meet. And if they do come together,
Speaker:they own it together to a certain point within the
Speaker:indigenous person's life. So they there seems to be this okay. This there's
Speaker:this part of me, and then there's this part of me. And and
Speaker:so what I've been trying to to figure out and to
Speaker:do over the years is, well, how can I
Speaker:be all of this? Yes. Right?
Speaker:Yeah. And so taking a look at scripture
Speaker:and and working it through from its historical perspective,
Speaker:but at the same time as well trying to figure
Speaker:out my culture, my traditions
Speaker:within what it says to me now, right, and what it
Speaker:says to our people. And and so there are many
Speaker:times when when I'm reading something from scripture and it would
Speaker:just jump out at me, right, and say, look, this is this
Speaker:is your tradition. This is what the elders were teaching you. Right?
Speaker:Right. And and so it it can be very exciting.
Speaker:A lot of times, it is wonderful to be able to see
Speaker:me, my people Mhmm. Within the text. So teaching
Speaker:something like that, I think, needs to have some authenticity.
Speaker:And I really don't like being one of those people that says, okay. This is
Speaker:part of me and that's part of me, but I'm not getting those 2 together.
Speaker:Right? Compartmentalize. Who I am. And I would
Speaker:venture to say it also allows your congregation members to be who they
Speaker:are. Yeah. Right? It gives permission for everybody
Speaker:to walk in that or an invitation there too. Because I
Speaker:think a lot of us in all kinds of different cultures, we may
Speaker:wrestle with it to varying degrees, but particularly if you face
Speaker:racism or if you face historical
Speaker:oppression, particularly with church involvement,
Speaker:That was one of my earlier questions. I was just like, you shared your story
Speaker:with me, and yet I'm like, how how do you love the churches
Speaker:in a pastoral shepherding way? How your love for the church is evident,
Speaker:but how have you loved the church to such depth and
Speaker:degree when there's been a lot of harm within the institution?
Speaker:Well, I love the church, the small c church. Mhmm. Of
Speaker:course, I really love it. I like, as a pastor, tending
Speaker:to if you wanna use the analogy of being a shepherd,
Speaker:tending to the congregation, right, and
Speaker:making sure that they're okay, that they're fed, that they're heard, that they're loved, that
Speaker:they're this and that. And and that part I really, really enjoy.
Speaker:The big C Church, you know, well, there's a lesson other thing.
Speaker:And I think that that's the hardest part of
Speaker:being an Anglican priest because you have all of this history
Speaker:that kinda follows you. Right? Yeah. And and so,
Speaker:it's a bit difficult sometimes to be able to
Speaker:walk through that history and to be able to
Speaker:somehow manage to live with it. And you've
Speaker:chosen to. And how how do you walk through that? How do
Speaker:you face those things? Very good question. I think the only
Speaker:reason why, apart from the fact that I was baptized in the
Speaker:Anglican church and I was always Anglican, and I don't know anything else other than
Speaker:being Anglican except for that brief period of time when I went
Speaker:to a nondenominational, very
Speaker:evangelical church. Mhmm. So I I really didn't know
Speaker:anything else, and I still don't really know that much. And I don't know if
Speaker:I really want to know anything else other than that. But
Speaker:I am not there because
Speaker:I'm a priest and that this is what I do. This is what needs to
Speaker:be done. I am there because Jesus had called
Speaker:me into his church, and that's the only reason.
Speaker:The only thing, every every time I start to get upset
Speaker:or feeling frustrated and wanting to just get out of
Speaker:this thing, right, it is the calling of God that keeps me
Speaker:there. And this is Jesus' church, and these are Jesus'
Speaker:people. And so because Jesus has chosen me from
Speaker:among his people to be able to lead and to feed
Speaker:and to sustain the rest of his flock,
Speaker:It's a privilege, and so I do it for him, not for not
Speaker:for the church. Yeah. No. That's beautiful. And if you were to
Speaker:describe the the passage in Ephesians that I referenced
Speaker:earlier was shepherding, but we're we're talking about that pastoral. How would
Speaker:you describe what are some of those qualities in a pastoral
Speaker:calling that may be different from others within the church? It's it's meant to
Speaker:build and edify the body of Christ. What are some
Speaker:of those things that you find naturally
Speaker:drawn to in that pastoral calling? What are some of those
Speaker:qualities? A lot of it is on listening.
Speaker:I think you have to have real amazing listening skills. And
Speaker:I I don't talk much. I do, but I don't and when I
Speaker:get to know the person, I tend to talk a lot, but I don't talk
Speaker:much. And, and that I think really helps me to,
Speaker:to be able to understand, to hear even
Speaker:when people don't think that I'm listening to them, Right?
Speaker:Maybe in a crowd Mhmm. But I know exactly what people
Speaker:are trying to say and what they're saying to one another, so I kinda go,
Speaker:oh, this is what he's saying. So you're not only
Speaker:attentive to what that person is saying, but you're you just alluded you're also listening
Speaker:to what the group is saying. How how are the sheep really doing in here?
Speaker:Like, where are things at with with this congregation? Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker:I think that's a skill that that you develop over the years. I mean, I
Speaker:am going to be 60 years old in in 2 weeks. Right? And so
Speaker:I've been I've been doing this for quite a while now, and
Speaker:and it is a skill. And I think I've I think I've always had
Speaker:this and, I think it's something that my elders have taught me
Speaker:that, you know, just be quiet and listen. Right? And
Speaker:and so that's what I did, you know, and so it
Speaker:comes sometimes not naturally, but most of the
Speaker:time it seems to seems to happen. I think
Speaker:one of the other things that I think is important apart from, you
Speaker:know, the leading, the feeding, and the teaching and the
Speaker:tending to, the flock metaphorically, of course. We
Speaker:wouldn't say that. You know, we're in Isaiah 40,
Speaker:God says, comfort, comfort my people, says the Lord. Yes.
Speaker:Right? And and so I think that's part of
Speaker:of of the pastoral's role Mhmm. To being a shepherd is to
Speaker:comfort Sure. Comfort the people. The
Speaker:word comfort in Hebrew
Speaker:is, and it means to strengthen,
Speaker:to encourage. So, to comfort is to
Speaker:instill a sense of security Mhmm. And to bolster,
Speaker:to give them strength, to get them
Speaker:to go through what they're going through and yet
Speaker:bring them through that and and to be able to hear
Speaker:the promises of God that I will take you through that. Because this is what
Speaker:Isaiah was saying to the people because they were in that he was
Speaker:talking to the ones, at least in this chapter anyway, the ones who were
Speaker:exiled already. Mhmm. And so he was saying, you
Speaker:know, comfort, uncomfort my people, says the lord. I
Speaker:like that because what you're not saying is that I'm gonna take
Speaker:all your hurt and pain and protect you and and keep you
Speaker:avoidant of that. Right. I'm gonna be there with you and walk through
Speaker:that with you. I think often we we think of
Speaker:pastors, people in pastoral roles as having to do
Speaker:everything. Yeah. But it it's really helping the
Speaker:body of Christ come through into their own unique
Speaker:callings too. Would you not say? Yes.
Speaker:That, I think someone or someone needs to let
Speaker:them know that God is there and God
Speaker:is now wanting to take you out of exile
Speaker:and and to bring you through that through that pain
Speaker:and and to bring you into a place where you can
Speaker:see his promises fulfilled or God's promises
Speaker:fulfilled. Yeah. So I re I really like that,
Speaker:that one. And at the end of that verse says the Lord,
Speaker:it means to just keep on saying it and keep on saying it and
Speaker:keep on saying it. So that's what he's telling his people.
Speaker:And and as well, he was telling Isaiah, you know,
Speaker:keep saying it and keep saying it until
Speaker:it's heard and listened to. And
Speaker:finally, I can start to bring. And if this
Speaker:when they start to walk, then then I can lead them out.
Speaker:Right? And indigenous people have been, in a lot of
Speaker:ways, exiled. They want us to sing the lord's song in a
Speaker:strange land in captivity, as that song
Speaker:goes. Sometimes, even for me, living in
Speaker:Winnipeg seems to be a very strange land
Speaker:still. Mhmm. And I've I have felt over the years that
Speaker:I've I've been held captive, forced
Speaker:to learn something that I never
Speaker:knew. Right? Or or to talk in a way that
Speaker:I never really did, that is English,
Speaker:and to be able to think in the English way.
Speaker:Because within the language is your worldview. Right?
Speaker:And so for me, to learn English meant to to
Speaker:learn another worldview apart from the
Speaker:Cree, which is very different sometimes,
Speaker:mostly from from the English way of So are you able to
Speaker:currently, as a priest, are you able to lead
Speaker:other Cree people in the Cree language and and some of
Speaker:those practices in how you worship and how you lead
Speaker:people? Yes. Yes. We are, church is called Epiphany
Speaker:Indigenous Anglican Church. It's a congregation that is
Speaker:inclusive, so it's not just an indigenous congregation. So
Speaker:we have quite a number of non indigenous people there.
Speaker:But I tend to use, Cree
Speaker:words to enhance the
Speaker:reading of the scripture. And we we do drumming,
Speaker:and, the welcome song is in Cree. So we try and
Speaker:do as much of that as we can, but it's
Speaker:it it it is English that unifies all of us because there's Inuit
Speaker:people there. There's Metis people. There's Cree people. There's
Speaker:Ojibwe people, you know, all all in the mix of non
Speaker:indigenous people. So we have to be able to understand each other.
Speaker:So, but Cree is there. Not this past Sunday. The
Speaker:Sunday before, we had the Eucharist
Speaker:in in Igitut. Oh, really? Yeah.
Speaker:And, I don't speak in Ittitut, but there's a
Speaker:priest who comes to Epiphany that speaks it. And
Speaker:so even though I'm not the one doing it, if there are
Speaker:gifts out there that other people can bring into the
Speaker:worship time, you know, wonderful. Well,
Speaker:the gift of pastoring, it doesn't have the moniker
Speaker:c o. Right? Like, it doesn't have to be everything. In fact,
Speaker:you might shepherd other people into their own giftings, and
Speaker:sharing those things in common, I think, is a beautiful trait of that pastoral
Speaker:gift. But sometimes we've added so many other
Speaker:things, other duties as necessary as required,
Speaker:and and we require a lot of pastors that maybe
Speaker:we need to be sharing to to
Speaker:others. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think we can
Speaker:learn, quite a bit from the apostles
Speaker:when there was a persecution. Remember Paul? He was persecuting the
Speaker:church and he allowed Stephen to be killed. And
Speaker:so there was this scattering of
Speaker:people all over the place except for the 12 apostles.
Speaker:And so they remain in the city and didn't go with
Speaker:them. Mhmm. But these people who did go out
Speaker:were proclaiming the good news of Jesus
Speaker:and and healing people and casting out demons. Right?
Speaker:But these were the people whom the apostles,
Speaker:were discipling. And so I
Speaker:I think that's part of what I feel is is
Speaker:really important is to the to be able
Speaker:to teach, to build up the body of
Speaker:Christ so that they can go out and
Speaker:do the work rather than me doing everything.
Speaker:And that includes going out into the congregation
Speaker:sometimes to do some of the work that that needs to be done there. Meaning
Speaker:the needs of each other and walking with each other. Yeah. And and
Speaker:then from there, you know, then then people can move
Speaker:out and go and preach and teach and exercise
Speaker:demons or whatever they wanted to do. Well and I think the walking with each
Speaker:other is somewhat countercultural to our North
Speaker:American city colonized mentality
Speaker:of each to their own, but walking with each other, we think,
Speaker:well, that's why you hire the pastor. Right? And yet I think it is a
Speaker:huge gift in what you're saying is helping other people to walk out those things.
Speaker:I'm curious, Vince, in in your experience,
Speaker:There will be people listening that maybe have that niggle of that
Speaker:pastoral calling, some of those things that resonate. They're they're nurturing. They're
Speaker:empathetic. They they listen better than than most of
Speaker:us. Right? Or they're they're attuned to to the
Speaker:well-being of people. What encouragement would you
Speaker:give to that 10 year old or that 16 year old walking
Speaker:away from the church, I've had it, to somebody coming back and
Speaker:wanting to find their authentic presence within the body of Christ, what
Speaker:advice would you give to people that are maybe feeling they're
Speaker:exploring that calling? Yeah. Well well, first of all, I
Speaker:wouldn't tell, you know, anybody to leave the church because Right. From
Speaker:the experience, I find that I really needed the
Speaker:body of Christ, when I was a teenager. And I think that
Speaker:things would have gone maybe perhaps a little bit more,
Speaker:smoother if I had just stayed and listened and just
Speaker:be a part of the the community. But the church, the
Speaker:big c church, is very hard to understand.
Speaker:It's hard to imagine doing things and
Speaker:working within it. But if you hear
Speaker:God's tugging or calling you, it's not
Speaker:really necessarily calling you into the big
Speaker:denominational sea. Right? What God is doing
Speaker:is calling you to be and and calling you to be and setting
Speaker:you apart as it were to be a part
Speaker:of this congregation so that you may be able to
Speaker:show and teach and hopefully by your life,
Speaker:teach the example of Christ
Speaker:ministry. And I wonder if it even starts
Speaker:small. Everything always starts small. It's in the in the small. It's it's in
Speaker:pouring that cup of coffee, helping that person with the door. It's it's nurturing
Speaker:and caring, using that, exercising those there's caregiving
Speaker:qualities about it in walking with people in those
Speaker:small ways that you almost get invited into. I love your
Speaker:story early on and how you had elders and
Speaker:people within the Anglican church not testing you to approve
Speaker:you as an exam. It didn't I don't get that sense from your story, but
Speaker:just affirming within you those things. But it had you not
Speaker:been exercising or making yourself available in those
Speaker:places, they couldn't affirm that in you. Yeah. Well,
Speaker:it it's within community that we find out who we are. It's within
Speaker:community that we know what our giftings are, and I think it's in
Speaker:community where God calls us. And so the
Speaker:elders, are are very much a part of all of
Speaker:that, And so it's really strange.
Speaker:Sometimes I wonder, and I laugh about this, which came
Speaker:first? When I was a child, the elders gave me a
Speaker:name, which is a main behavior in apesis, meaning praying
Speaker:boy, right? When I grew into
Speaker:adulthood, they called me a praying
Speaker:man as opposed to a, which is
Speaker:priest. So I'm going, did I become a priest because
Speaker:that's what the elders were calling me? Or
Speaker:did they know? Right? Right. Like, they have,
Speaker:elders when you're when you listen, because they they just they're
Speaker:very wise. They just sit there and they take in life and
Speaker:they've lived life and they can understand. And so I
Speaker:think sometimes when they look into your eyes, they know exactly the
Speaker:gifts that you have. Right? I mean, it's it's it's a very strange
Speaker:thing to say, but I I I think there are some of those elders
Speaker:that really do. And, They may actually see more in you
Speaker:than you felt at your in yourself at that time as a
Speaker:young boy. I think so. They saw that in you. You're right. I I
Speaker:now I can see some some other kids that I know. I know
Speaker:what their gifts are, and they probably don't know. And you can speak
Speaker:that into their being and speak life to
Speaker:that. And some people don't know exactly what it is that,
Speaker:that God wants them to do. This this particular student that I have
Speaker:now, and, he's always, you know, I said, well,
Speaker:because in our very first beginning of our core the course, I asked I said,
Speaker:well, why are you guys here, right, taking this course? Because I teach,
Speaker:indigenous and Christian course. And,
Speaker:when the the one guy said, well, I've always been I
Speaker:don't know why. I always seem to get
Speaker:attracted to the the theology
Speaker:courses and and to more of the
Speaker:kinda pastoral stuff. And so I said,
Speaker:I wonder what God is saying. Right? And that's all I said.
Speaker:And and so now the guy is wondering, is this
Speaker:is this what God is calling me to be? Yeah. Right? Is this a
Speaker:preparation for something that is that is very much
Speaker:involved in the church? Because he doesn't know what he
Speaker:wants to be even now because he's gonna be graduating soon, so
Speaker:you better find out. And that's a very pastoral
Speaker:practical advice you're just providing. Pay attention to what
Speaker:your eyes see and where you keep gravitating toward, what catches your
Speaker:attention, what needs to be done. There may be a an invitation
Speaker:attached to that. And I also hear what you're saying in your story
Speaker:is surround yourself with people that can validate and speak life
Speaker:into that that have wisdom. We've sometimes,
Speaker:compartmentalized even generations from each other
Speaker:of not understanding, but actually to seek that wisdom and Godly
Speaker:counsel out. Yeah. And to have that Godly counsel, as you
Speaker:say, is part of leadership. Right.
Speaker:Part of being a leader to those ones who may
Speaker:be floundering or who may not know what
Speaker:to do. Sometimes people will need to ask,
Speaker:well, what do you think? Sometimes it's up to us humans
Speaker:to figure it all out. You know, God gave us a brain and and we
Speaker:have the ability to pray and to discern when
Speaker:God will will show us. But I think that God
Speaker:shows us a lot of the time and tells us through
Speaker:leadership Yeah. With whether that's elders or preachers
Speaker:or mom and dads or Well, I wanna thank you, Vince,
Speaker:for taking this time for this conversation. Thank you for
Speaker:this coming on to the podcast, but I also
Speaker:into good readings. I have some good books on my shelf thanks to you as
Speaker:I I get curious. Yeah. And you do have that shepherding presence, and I
Speaker:really value and appreciate you as a friend and as a
Speaker:brother in Christ. And so thank you so much, and I wish you all
Speaker:God's blessing as you continue to pastor people. Thank
Speaker:you. Thank you for
Speaker:joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
Speaker:inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living
Speaker:life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative
Speaker:of CareImpact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and
Speaker:equipping the whole church to journey well in community. You can
Speaker:visit their website at careimpact.ca or visit
Speaker:journeywithcare.ca to get more information on weekly episodes,
Speaker:Journey with Prayer, and details about our upcoming events and meetups.
Speaker:You can also leave us a message, share your thoughts, and connect with like
Speaker:minded individuals
Speaker:in a good way. And always remember to stay curious.
