Johan Heinrichs [: 00:00:00

This is Journey with Care. We're concluding our series, the Flavors of Care. This series has been a Captivate exploration of the diverse personalities, flavors, and impact of each Instagram type. As we come together for this culmination, We'll build on what we learned and explore how this journey can continually enrich our understanding of ourselves and our We explore the different worlds filled with unique individuals from the enthusiasts to the loyalist, the investigator, the creative, the cheever, the helper, the improver, the harmonizer, and the challenger, each embodying a distinct essence of care and compassion. We've uncovered a wealth of insights into the human nature of each individual. Throughout the series, we've delved into the magic that each enneagram type weaves into our lives and the communities that they are part of. These interviews have helped illuminate the paths of vulnerability, empathy, growth, and the power of connection. If you've missed any of these insightful episodes, you can still catch them at journey with care. ca/enneagram. Today, we are joined by our original guest expert, Tamara Crooker, who will help us synthesize the wisdom we've gained throughout this journey. With her host Wendi, she'll discuss how we can apply these lessons in our lives, fostering continuous personal growth, curiosity, and fostering deep connections with those around us. So join us on this enlightening conversation as we celebrate the beautiful tapestry of care and compassion woven by these enneagram types. Let's look ahead to the path before us, committed to growth and connection. and let's get curious and let's start the conversation.

Wendi Park [: 00:01:45

Welcome to our wrap up episode Flavors of care with us in studio. We have back Tamara. Welcome back to the podcast. Woo hoo. It's so good to have you Wow. What a series we've been having over the summer. I am full of ice cream. I don't know about

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:02:02

you. Absolutely.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:04

so many different flavors that we've been able to enjoy. And for our listeners who have listened to the intro to this series, you will remember Tamara in our very first episode of Flavors with Care, and it's so good to have you back.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:02:18

I'm very excited to be back.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:20

Well, well, we had our intro, you were just launching your new business, enneagram aware, and you had this summer to get going. How are things going there?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:02:31

Thank you for that question. They are going fantastic. I've done some coaching sessions. I've really got my feet wet with how to talk to different, any gram types about things that are going on in their mind, body, and hearts. And it's been It's been such a beautiful learning experience for me because we're so programmed to look at things from our perspective and Wendi you get to actually sit one on

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:02:56

1

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:02:56

and talk about the enneagram with somebody, it's just amazing.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:00

Yeah. And this is a totally new journey that you're on because this is the beginning of a typical school year. You are a teacher by profession. Your 1st year, not going back into the school system, And it takes guts to be that entrepreneur. How do you feel about that piece of you?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:03:18

It's very mixed. I was reflecting on it just yesterday that I I guess it's been since I was 5 every September long weekend means. I go back to school now.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:31

Wow.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:03:31

So it's actually it's a huge mindset shift for me. I mean, I I think I'm embracing it, and I'm embracing, like, the weirdness. I'm embracing the sadness missing my colleagues and my students and enjoying fact that I'm free, and I get to pick and choose my schedule. And I get to, work with a system that I just love. Yeah. I can talk to any gram for days days years, and hopefully will for years years years years years. Well,

Wendi Park [: 00:04:00

and that's just beautiful. And it takes courage, though, right? Because this is something you're good at. You could easily go back into teaching, and and I'm sure all of that will pay off very well with enneagram aware and your coaching and one on one sessions. However, to take that break, to actually do it, I admire that courage. I know it's not easy. I I've been there. to start care impact. So from one entrepreneur to the other, way to go.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:04:25

Thank you.

Wendi Park [: 00:04:26

And this journey is just about to begin. And and there's some exciting things around the corner. You just never know. And and that fear never goes away. I don't think.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:04:34

I totally agree. And honestly, I credit the enneagram to get me here because it was this ability to actually start listening to my body and the place where I get my answers where I my body said, it's time to quit. So I did. Wow. And it it I think it's that sureness of me and what I know I'm capable of that I've learned through the Instagram that got me here, and I know will carry me forward. And I know

Wendi Park [: 00:04:57

we're gonna dive in a bit more and recap some of these, conversations we've had with all the different flavors, and there's so many other nuances that weren't represented in this this series here. And I have a sneaking suspicion that many people that are listening right now actually have certain things within them certain dreams that are not yet realized that they don't necessarily have the courage to do, or they've been sitting on it for a while. Yes. And there it it's time to to birth those dreams. And it's not to say everybody should quit their jobs and and go start something crazy like you and I

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:05:32

have enjoyed it.

Wendi Park [: 00:05:34

And maybe some should. Right. But there's there's certain things. Maybe picking up a new hobby, maybe it's doing something that they have always dreamt about or that they're built for, but they don't necessarily have the courage to do that. What kind of advice would you give to other people that are sitting on that fence. They have that thing, but it's a crazy audacious thing.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:05:56

Yes. I have been trying to pick up the phrase. Just try it. So instead of just do it, because that sometimes feels like there's an accomplishment happening, I would like to say, just try it. just be curious. Just get out there and try it.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:13

And in our studio, in our Shasta, I have this big wooden thing here that says, why not?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:06:18

Exactly. Why not try.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:20

What's the worst that could happen? You could fail, but we could fail forward. I actually don't think failure is is failure. It failure to try is failure.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:06:29

I agree. And I actually have been thinking so much about this idea of change, and I've on my website, you can see a picture of the circle of change.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:37

And you -- -- Graham aware.ca.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:06:39

Thank you very much. And there's a comfort zone, which we're all I think pretty aware of. And then right outside is fear.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:48

Mhmm.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:06:48

And outside of that is the learning and outside of that is the growing. So There is always a little bit of you that is gonna feel a little bit afraid. You're gonna start thinking, what are other people gonna say? And you're gonna start feeling like maybe you should back off and go into your comfort zone, but it likely means you're headed somewhere better and better for you as far as expanding what you know and expanding how you move through the world.

Wendi Park [: 00:07:15

And speaking of which, I've heard said on this, whole series, we've had some listeners give us some good feedback. Binge listening on their road trips at the campsite. Sorry

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:07:28

to do it.

Wendi Park [: 00:07:28

While they're doing the the lawn, so many different people have commented how this series and listening to people's stories have brought people to that edge that looking over the edge of because sometimes let's face it. Doing introspective work under standing ourselves, even the big, that enneagram. I sometimes people fear looking into themselves because we just don't know. Right? It takes courage. to go deep within ourselves, to go into do the contemplative work. And really, it's a call to contemplation. It's just a tool. Yep. and as you will know, and we've highlighted throughout the series, this isn't the enneagram expert series. This is just to get us curious about understanding ourselves, celebrating our differences, and understanding how people are motivated. And that takes courage to do our own work. Yes. What are some observations like you've listened through the series since we did our intro? And we had some guests is about ice cream, and I tell you that there's so many that we got right.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:08:31

I totally agree. Even the mango, mind greeters. Right? Oh. I know.

Wendi Park [: 00:08:36

It was so fun.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:08:37

If I can just interrupt for one second about the term courage, I think people misunderstand courage and sixes their holy idea or the thing that they're working towards is courage. And courage doesn't mean the scary stuff doesn't happen. Encourage doesn't mean Fear doesn't happen. Courage is saying, look at that. That's scary. And you make a choice to move forward anyway. Oh, yes. So let's all have courage.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:06

So I saw courage in each of the people that I was able to, what a privilege it was to interview so many different people. Mhmm. You know what? One thing that I observed as I interviewed them all, I gave them all a bit of a show notes. We don't go crazy, and I don't we don't script things. Some people are wondering if we've practiced this. No. What you hear is what you get. It's over a cup of coffee. It's the real deal. But I gave everybody sort of a a a kind of a flow of order what we would be covering some similar questions. Each of the people that I interviewed representing different types of flavors, and there's nuances even within those different types of flavors and any gram numbers, how different they interviewed?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:09:48

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:48

I was blown away. Yep. And it was a beautiful experience.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:09:53

I think what I learned listening to it is the reminder again that you are only living life from your perspective. Mhmm.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:10:01

And

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:10:01

we need your perspective and your perspective is valuable. but don't assume you understand and know another's perspective. I've done a lot of sitting on the enneagram, and I can only tell you based on what I've learned what those numbers are thinking and feeling. And we can make good guesses and we can kind of figure that out from our perspective. but there is nothing like hearing from that number's mouth. This is how it feels to live in my body.

Wendi Park [: 00:10:29

Yeah. And it it challenged me to be a good question, ask her, not just in a studio, But when I'm sitting and having coffee with a friend -- Mhmm.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:10:40

--

Wendi Park [: 00:10:40

when I'm interacting with people in the church foyer, when I'm at a grocery store or, you know, all these different places, if we could be rather curious, not in an odd, like, in in interrogative way. Yes. But in a way of, like, leaning in and tell me more. Yeah. What's your perspective? Tell me your, like, what about your childhood? those things give gifts to me of understanding how I can befriend them, how I can do community better in a more authentic integrative way that I can actually interact with them at a more holistic level.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:11:15

Well, and I think what the enneagrams really taught me is that The words that are coming out of people's mouths give us a certain amount of information, but there are often little nuggets of information hidden behind them in the way they're saying it in the themes that kind of come up in how they're speaking about certain things. And I think we're very programmed to take information in and interact with it and send it back. And that really is, like, I guess I'm thinking a lot a lot about the 9 interview that you did where the idea of real listening, I mean, real listening is a lot more than just the words that are coming out, thinking about them, and then deciding how to process it. No. No. It's I mean, even if you look at the hierarchy of like needs and, multiple intelligences and all those things, I mean, there's deeper level all those things. And when you really get into it and you're really listening, there's so much coming at you, and there's so much that you can learn about a person.

Wendi Park [: 00:12:17

And one of the things that I observed as I was interviewing so many different types of people is that each number depending on what question if we really went deep and just saying, tell me more. Yep. And I wanna understand

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:12:32

--

Wendi Park [: 00:12:32

Yes.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:12:32

--

Wendi Park [: 00:12:32

their their guess point where and, unfortunately, listeners can't always hear it. Some of it came through the emotions.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:12:38

Mhmm.

Wendi Park [: 00:12:39

But there's a a piece of soul talk that little sprote in the eyes of a little trickle of a tear. You get them at the soul level, and it didn't matter. It wasn't just the feelings people.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:12:51

Yep.

Wendi Park [: 00:12:52

There was a lot of people that said, I've done podcasts before. Some of them. Some of them even said, I've done lots of podcasts, but I was most nervous about this one because it went deep. And it was about me. It used to waste about a cognitive idea of what I know for.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:13:07

I'm good at this.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:08

I can talk about this. but to talk about my childhood and what makes me feel cared for. There's a a piece of that nurturing soul that we all long for.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:13:20

s, what are you hoping for in: 2023

Wendi Park [: 00:14:03

And I think that applies to some of this -- personality tools assessment stuff that we've been talking about. I'm an

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:14:11

8.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:14:11

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:12

I'm an

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:14:13

8.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:15

Oh,

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:14:16

yes. There's

Wendi Park [: 00:14:17

this shadow side or this longing side. There's something deeper within, and I think there's a message here, whether you are into the Instagram or not, that's beside the point. But when you're at a church foyer, Hi. How are you? Yep. How are you?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:14:33

How are you? Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:35

Are we getting to that 3rd level? And that's the whole point. The the assessment in the Instagram, whatever tool that you wanna use to help bring language to who you are is simply a tool, but are we going to those deeper layers? Because it's safer at question number

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:14:50

1.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:52

sometimes I don't have the energy to go to number 3 with you.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:14:55

Which is fine. Right? Like, understanding those balances and understanding what you're available for mentally, spiritually, emotionally in that day.

Wendi Park [: 00:15:04

But tell me, what would happen? What does happen should I say? Wendi we only go to that surface level. And I think that is the relational poverty that we're experiencing in Canada. That is the relational poverty we're experiencing in the church in in our workplace -- Yes.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:15:20

--

Wendi Park [: 00:15:20

that we all long for intimacy, but it takes courage because we to be vulnerable. We have to go past that. We have fear about being I have fear. Like, hello. I'm 8. I'm a challenge driver. Well, I don't wanna be vulnerable. Right. But for me, it's taken a lot of deep inner work and it will continue to be a challenge for me to keep going deep with my self, not just with others, because then I just pathologize others. And I help others, and it's a shielding for myself. Right. They need me too.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:15:50

Right. Exactly. We need everybody as their full self to be part of the community. The thing that I've been thinking a lot about is this concept of autopilot And I think that really explains a lot of that. I'm gonna ask the first question. We've kind of trained our selves, how to navigate certain social situations. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm good. Like, we have that very surface level, and honestly, I could tell you right now, that's autopilot for me. I know what I'm supposed to do Wendi go into those search certain situations, and you're getting the autopilot version of me. So I think what I've started looking at is how to turn that autopilot off. And that's what the enneagram has helped me with is to go, where are those spaces where I'm just driving my car? And I have no I'd highway hypnosis. I have no idea how I got here. And I don't wanna be like that. That isn't living fully for me. That isn't going to show me the depth of me. That's not gonna show me the depth of anybody else around me. I need autopilot for certain things. We can't decide every single thing that we're doing in every moment of every day. We need that help to just have human instinct to just do certain things, but I wanna see it that's what I want. I wanna see when I'm that way, and I wanna see when I am behaving and responding authentically and honestly to what's in front of me.

Wendi Park [: 00:17:16

And it gives you agency to do something about it and to go deeper and to even find health in those places that otherwise you'd you'd drag to the casket those challenges. Yes.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:17:26

And they get worse, man. I mean, I'm I'm not forty yet, but I already see my autopilot stuff acting up, and I already see myself responding in those catch phrases. We we all have those little catch phrases that we use. those don't get better if you don't look at them.

Wendi Park [: 00:17:42

Well, as a mature forty five year old, let me tell you, they don't. I we've got our our more mature ones listening, and they're thinking, oh, you children. Right?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:17:54

But it's so true. Right? Like, you just if you're not gonna do anything, you're just is just gonna keep on rolling and they're gonna get more and more concrete into you.

Wendi Park [: 00:18:03

And I don't wanna be that person that goes autopilot to the casket. No. I would rather make failures and try and and ask for forgiveness along the way And so that people that get to know me -- Mhmm.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:18:20

--

Wendi Park [: 00:18:20

that take time to get to know me will get the real me.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:18:24

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:18:24

And it's not all pretty. That that's the vulnerable side of it because none of us are all put together. That perfection is not something we can attain.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:18:33

Well, and that was the thing I thought about the most looking through all these or listening through all these interviews is Each person was, you know, the 6th was talking about how they seemed like a downer. Why does it seem like a downer to point out things that might go wrong. Why have we labeled that as a negative thing, or the enthusiast always looking for the happy Why we labeled that as, no, you shouldn't always be positive all the time. You have to look at the balance. We've we've really taken it upon ourselves to label and put into boxes as they often are, you know, everyone's afraid of being put into especially anagram waste.

Wendi Park [: 00:19:10

off in their pushback. Yeah. I don't do that. I don't wanna label people and put everybody in a buck. It actually livers that if you get

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:19:16

to know. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's it's interesting how we've labeled right and wrong, and that's a bad version of me, and that's a good version of me. All we're trying to say is We want all of you. And until you start doing a little bit of work to get behind the first time we ask the question, how are you? we're really only scratching the surface of you as a person, and we're likely getting the socialized version of what you feel is acceptable in the space that you are answering that question.

Wendi Park [: 00:19:48

Part of the dilemma, though, and what gets us to those hang ups is because we are in such an individualistic society that we don't in Canada

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:20:00

--

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:20:01

Mhmm.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:20:01

--

Wendi Park [: 00:20:01

to be individualistic. And that is prized. It's esteemed. It's rewarded. In the church, it's rewarded in society. It's rewarded in our families to launch and and be free and not need each other. And, like, the empty nest is the the gold standard. Right. We'll never get there. Just saying But that individualism runs so strong. So then if I am only an 8 in all my nuances, mind you, But if that's who I am, I'm defining myself. I'm also saying I have limitations and I'm not everything. Yes. Stallman Kent. I can't be all of those things. I have parts of me of everything, but I this is who I am. But I I can't live on my own. We are not created for individuals. You're created for community. So when you look at it from a community mindset, collective mindset. Yep. That's when embracing our differences actually matters and can be celebrated. As individuals, it feels like a deficit. or a pigeonhole.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:20:59

Yes. That's such a good point. Like, it it really takes hearing another's perspective and another point of view and getting to their third time asking the same question -- That's

Wendi Park [: 00:21:09

right.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:21:12

scene or the pieces that maybe you're feeling insecure about, you don't need to feel insecure about your piece because they may have it.

Wendi Park [: 00:21:18

And, actually, you can celebrate. I need that.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:21:21

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:21:21

instead of seeing it as a deficit. Oh, you're so good at that, but I don't have that. It's just like, you're so good at that, and I'm so grateful you're in my community. I'm so grateful you're part of my family. I'm so grateful you're part of my church because we need each other. So we can actually celebrate that.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:21:37

More celebrating. Yes. Yeah.

Wendi Park [: 00:21:39

Let's go

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:21:40

7.

Wendi Park [: 00:21:41

The enthusiasts, we we need that.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:21:44

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:21:45

So we could all be more of ourselves. and feel liberated in community.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:21:50

Well, and I think it's it's a matter of, again, taking those labels off. Like, I think that there are very specific things that we're allowed to celebrate in the church and in, I mean, you can talk about marriages and birth and new jobs and all those things, but you can also talk about very specific ways that all those things look. And the way that people show up in those spaces and celebration needs to happen way more often.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:16

Yeah.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:22:16

Way more often about things that were a challenge or were a little bit different than we expected them to go and embracing it.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:27

For example, Celebrating entrepreneurship.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:22:31

Yay.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:32

Celebrating trying things new.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:22:34

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:35

Celebrating doing things different. because what work to get us here isn't gonna get us where we need to go or what the dilemma today is. And honestly, That is a huge dilemma. I've talked to, so I'm doing interviews with pastors right now for another qualitative research project, not going on the podcast, but I've been researching with pastors and and learning how churches learn and stuff. And there is a dilemma within the church to need to do things different. but that apostolic, that prophetic and evangelist, they're we call them the apes are on the outside. And the the pastors and teachers who shepherd the flock and who who nurture and everything, those are being hired and maintained, but that apostolic vision of doing things new isn't being celebrated. Right. But I do know from interviewing, even just this series over the summer is there's a lot of hopes and dreams. sitting in those pews. And I'm like, imagine if they went with those things in community, not individuals trying to make their their stance and make soapbox. Yep. But in community, what if we shared at that deeper why? That third level. Imagine if we collected our differences and our gifts and abilities and then look and say, wow. Yep. I'm left hopeful. Yes. And I'm left hopeful when people are responding to our podcast and saying, I love that one. And then I say, why did you like that one so much? And it's just like there's something that resonated within their soul, giving them language to go that deeper third level.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:24:11

And I think it's so interesting. Going back to those interviews, I've been really thinking a lot about what makes us uncomfortable or what resonates with us. Is it because there's piece of us that we haven't acknowledged either good or bad, saying like, oh, I would never, whatever. I mean, Is that bad, or is that just you're a little bit afraid of that, or that's a deep desire that you haven't really acknowledged? I mean, I think the beauty of the enneagram is it's the full spectrum of human experience. So I may secretly want to be up on stage and in the spotlight, but I'm at 9, so I'm gonna tell myself over and over again. No. No. No. No.

Wendi Park [: 00:24:51

No. No. They don't need to do that.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:24:52

You don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. But in that inability to acknowledge what I really desire, I look down on other things. Right? And when I can start to see the beauty of all those things working together and all those pieces coming together, then I don't have to be scared of me wanting it. I don't have to be scared of that person wanting it. I don't I mean, I just don't need to worry. There is enough to go around. There is a place for every person. Nobody is left out of this system.

Wendi Park [: 00:25:21

You know, what it allows us to do as we get to know each other and ourselves, it allows us to see what courage looks like for that 9. It looks that allows

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:25:29

us to see

Wendi Park [: 00:25:30

what Curry's looks like as a 2 -- Yes.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:25:31

--

Wendi Park [: 00:25:32

to even step out of what we pigeonhole them to be And it it we can celebrate that courage, which we might take for granted. Of course, I'll go on a stage. Yeah. However, it takes courage for a 9 to say what she said and say, well, thank you so much for speaking up.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:25:48

Totally. Well, it's it's an inspiration watching someone grow. Yeah. Never makes anybody else feel bad. It is like an opportunity to embrace growth.

Wendi Park [: 00:25:57

Oh, everybody gets an endorphin hit on that one. At least I do. I love

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:26:02

seeing people strive. Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:26:03

And be their authentic self.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:26:05

And if you're not feeling that way, Look at that too. because -- Right.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:26:08

--

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:26:08

I'm pretty, like, what is that? That what is that that's making you feel?

Wendi Park [: 00:26:11

It is the jealousy of a forest thing. Everybody is making it. And it's

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:26:15

gotta be something in you, right, that's feeling like, maybe I secretly wanted that, or maybe I I looked down on that, or maybe I, like, what a perfect opportunity to look at it. Like, all this is is get curious. It doesn't have to be labeled the same way we always have.

Wendi Park [: 00:26:30

So I'm wondering, you you mentioned earlier about those 3 quest like, not the magical 3, but asking the same question multiple times. in these things. And and I think that's the deeper work that we can ask ourselves. So for those of us who who have been following along this series -- Mhmm.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:26:47

--

Wendi Park [: 00:26:47

and I I know even summer's saying I'm gonna listen to it again because I haven't been aware of these things. Now I wanna listen to it again and and dig a little bit deeper It's about asking those deeper questions and unlocking some of that, those inner things that we have never contemplated.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:27:03

And and I think for me, in my own personal journey, I'm really good at accomplishing tasks.

Wendi Park [: 00:27:10

Mhmm.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:27:10

Really good at just doing what I'm supposed to do. But the work for me has been sitting, letting those tasks wash over me, still sitting, waiting a little bit longer, and then seeing what's happening inside my body. So there is a way to ask those three questions even to yourself and to sit quietly and see what your internal world is actually saying to you. I think there is way more going on inside of us than we are prepared to sit with. And when you finally get into that space, do it with a journal, do it with whatever you wanna do it with with your Bible, with your, meditation, with prayer, however you wanna get there, sit there, ask those questions a few times and see what comes up.

Wendi Park [: 00:28:00

One of the things that I observed while doing the in reviews. I was particularly intrigued with the areas that I don't find natural, and I found it most challenging, actually, to interview those that I don't find most natural to go to. That's in the feeling sector. Yes. So feelings, I I wasn't uncomfortable talking about other people feelings are going there. I think I've done enough deeper work in that. But what I found is that I had an intrigue of what makes them tick, especially like how do feelings mix with your faith and your church experience and how do feelings integrate in a healthy way because I've often been told that feelings kinda follow your faith and whatever. And as I've been interviewing and as I've been doing some more reflective work for myself, It doesn't mean just because I operate out of my gut, as a challenger. I I'm typically right on my gut. Yep. However, it doesn't mean that I I'm not a feelings person. Therefore, I'm not gonna go there. It actually means I actually have more curiosity there. I should have more curiosity there. to learn from them, not to be the 2 or the 3 or the the 1, but it's to to go in those places that I don't naturally tend to tiptoe in and ask those deeper questions. And that's the beauty. We all have, the the other people around us who are different from us. Be curious about that and say, you know, I and I'll tell you an example. I've been landscaping our yard.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:29:26

It looks fantastic. it, by the way.

Wendi Park [: 00:29:28

I I'm not a green plum at all. We'll hope and pray that the grass sprouts, but it's been a fun project. I've been listening to a lot of books and podcasts over the time. in my days off, but as I've been working on it, I've been reflecting on some of the feelings part of the wheel. And I'm thinking, My back is sore. Oh. I'm feeling short. I'm feeling in fired. Look at that. And and that actually enriched me because you know what? I also now started to look at my dashboard of saying, how do I feel? Oh, I could treat myself like a human and drink water. I tell you it's don't naturally drink water or take care of this I would, like, be taken off on a stretcher if I had to because I'm gonna get this done. You know? But it enriched me And that's not my natural self, but it it enriched me.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:30:21

Totally. Well, I think that maybe is the misconception is whatever you lead with is just what you lead with. They're all there. So what I've recognized is someone in me, a younger Tamara inside of me is feeling. She turned that off at some point.

Wendi Park [: 00:30:39

Yeah.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:30:40

So she struggled to feel or she didn't feel like that was welcome, and so she turned that off. That part of me is still in there, and that part of me is probably hurting a little bit. Like, wanting. Right? Like, wanting to share those pieces of me not knowing how, feeling like I'll get in trouble if I do. Like, some of those pieces that I need to have a little bit compassion for because they feel foreign for a reason.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:03

Yep.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:31:04

They're not bad. Yep. They're uncomfortable for a reason, so I need to look some of those pieces. And I love what you said about using our pals 2, 3, and 4 to see how they embrace feelings because that is their lens. That is what they lead in.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:18

They're good at it.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:31:19

Totally.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:20

They're natural.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:31:20

Totally.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:21

So we can learn from each other. The other observation that I had in the interviews, and I think it came through most of the recordings is that how many of the different personality types And the people that I interviewed said, I can walk into a room, and I can read the room. And I smiled inside because They weren't wrong. They weren't contradictory. But then when I probed further, they saw different things. They read different things And I'm like, boy, we're sitting with a 100%, like, 10 out of 10. If there's ten people in the room, they're all reading the room. Yeah.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:31:58

And

Wendi Park [: 00:31:58

they're all pretty much right.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:32:00

Yes. Well, they're right by their perspective. What's right?

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:32:02

--

Wendi Park [: 00:32:02

perspective. Yes. Yes. True. Yeah. So they're all reading the room. Yep. And yet it's not a shared experience because we're living individualistic. And so they think they've got corner on the read -- Yeah.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:32:15

--

Wendi Park [: 00:32:15

either in the feelings or the guts or the head. I do. Well, that makes 2 of us in the room. Right? No. But everybody's reading the room. But they're reading it from a different perspective. And if we could tap into those deeper levels, boy, would we have a good understanding And we could map out problems a lot easier.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:32:34

Well, tap into it and allow it. Right? Like, so many of us are in tolerant to different reads of the room. We're the right way. They're not the right way. Or, you know, undervaluing or putting different labels on it that don't fit their way of reading the room is their way of reading the room, and it's beautiful and it adds and it is complicated. Totally. Totally. It's beautiful.

Wendi Park [: 00:32:59

Well, we could keep talking, and there's so much that we could unpack here. I'm we're gonna have to have you back. And and I'm I'm a big fan of enneagram aware already. I hope our listeners are following enneagramaware.ca. There is a newsletter that they can follow. Right?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:33:14

Yes. There is.

Wendi Park [: 00:33:15

So be sure to sign up for for your newsletter. But as we wrap up, what are some takeaways maybe next steps or things that people could do as they're listening, wanting to process internalizes, what are some some steps in that direction?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:33:30

Yes. I think probably the biggest step you can take is to really narrow in on your number. Yes. You're all the numbers. yes, you go different places and stress and health and all those things. There are wings to consider. There are, you know, socialization pieces to consider. But the information available to grow and expand your worldview starts with really knowing your first motivation, your core motivation. And so I know we've, as I listened to all those interviews, there were people that waffled between two types, and then there was something that really locked them into their types.

Wendi Park [: 00:34:09

So -- They went to that deeper level. Right? surface, they might say, hey. I look like it too. Yeah. Exactly. -- go deeper and they realize

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:34:16

Yeah. So I would suggest to really examine the 9 types. So there's lots of information available for that. My website has the start of some of that information. There's so many good books that I believe we included in the first show notes

Wendi Park [: 00:34:30

that you can do it again.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:34:32

so really narrowing in on that type, And then realizing that there are mistypes out there, that there are, you know, ones sometimes look like threes in this specific scenario. 6 does sometimes look like nines in this specific scenario. And there's information on that too. Then the other piece of the puzzle that was really helpful for me and really helpful people that I know is that subtype level of learning. So within each number, there are 3 subtypes. and each of them has the same motivation and has the same things that they're wrestling with inside themselves but they look a little bit different. And so when you start looking at those subtype motivations and they're oriented around the your instinct. So they you've got your self preservation instinct, your social instinct, or your sexual or one to one instinct. Again, we have them all. but they mix with your number in a really interesting way. And so when you can start looking at that level of information and that level of anyagram experience, it just blows your world apart.

Wendi Park [: 00:35:36

Yeah.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:35:36

There is so much to learn, and it's just written there. You can just look at it and go, oh, yeah. That's me. What's my next step forward? So there's lots to learn.

Wendi Park [: 00:35:45

And what that also allows you to do is grow deeper on how can I grow in this in health?

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:35:51

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:35:51

And what are the things that, oh, yeah, hello, shadow side, how can I work towards health so that for the betterment community. Yep. And what I can contribute

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:36:01

to the community. Well, this is all going to ripple out to literally any person you are in contact with moving forward. I even notice it when I'm meeting people just randomly in the grocery store, I approach that differently now that I know different things about me.

Wendi Park [: 00:36:18

I would agree too. And as I've been becoming more enneagram aware, part of the time this year, I'm gonna be free advertisement. I should just wear wear the brand on my shirt. But it also gives me more of a lens of compassion and curiosity in community rather than, like, you know, those that judgment call that you you're not trying to be judgmental. but you just do it, like, out of your subconscious. Right? Yes. And so it it gives me more curiosity. I flip into curiosity more than just like, I can't believe they just said that. Yep. It's more like interesting. I wonder what's in that rich inner world.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:36:54

Yes. But I think that has to start with you. Oh, absolutely. Judd ourselves for the things that are going on internally.

Wendi Park [: 00:37:01

The more

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:37:01

we're controlling that out there. So when we can be curious about ourselves and curious why, oh, I wonder why I responded.

Wendi Park [: 00:37:08

I wonder why I've had public heart complications.

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:37:12

Then we can start having that compassion outward. Is that oxygen put on your own oxygen mask? Please. Please. Please.

Wendi Park [: 00:37:20

Well, Tamara, it has been a delight to have you throughout this series. Thank you so much for coming on. I hope people are gonna be following and your grandma and being blessed by all the things that you have to offer to enrich this community, my biggest wish would be that those that are listening to this would do that deep inner work. Get curious. Get curious about others in your community. And it, again, it's not for your own enrichment. It's to bless the community. To love god. with your whole authentic self

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:37:49

--

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:37:49

Yes.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:37:50

--

Wendi Park [: 00:37:50

and to love your neighbor as yourself. So love yourself in all that God has created you. Thank you so much. for coming on the podcast.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:37:57

--

Tamara Kroeker [: 00:37:57

you. Yay. Go self awareness.

Wendi Park [: 00:38:01

Woo hoo.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:38:02

Thank you for embarking on this in Lundy journey with us throughout our enneagram series, The Flavors of Care. We hope you found value in this series, and that has been a source of personal growth and self discovery for you. Just like different flavors of ice cream, each any of gram type has brought its own richness and depth to our discussions. As we conclude this series, we encourage you to share the wisdom you've gained with a friend as podcasts are even more enjoyable when shared with others. And remember, you can always on our website journey with CareImpact to stay informed about upcoming podcast meetups and other exciting content. Once again, we extend our hard our gratitude for listening and joining us on this journey. Let's carry the spirit of curiosity forward, continuously exploring the magic of care in our lives and communities. Thank you, and bring your curiosity as you tune in next week.