The Joyful Alternative | Out of Sync Christmas With Nikayla Reize

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:00:02

Merry Christmas, everyone. Welcome to Journey with care where we're unwrapping the true spirit of the season. Join us as we dive into some Christmas traditions we've embraced as christians. So get out your candy canes, stockings, Christmas trees, carols, ho ho. Hold on here. Let's back it up because beneath the tinsel and carols, there's a deeper story to be told. This advent, we'll be daring to reassess our hallmark Christianity for a more honest yet hopeful look at middle Eastern Jesus, Emmanuel, God with us. So get ready for an advent journey that goes beyond the holiday glitz as we question, explore and unravel truth.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:00:49

Because while.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:02:09

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Wendi Park [: 00:02:11

Yeah, I have been so excited to have you here as well. We met when we were both in Waterloo at a new leaf network gathering in Waterloo, Ontario just recently, and it was really refreshing to hear you speak at this conference, and I am so delighted to introduce you to many of our audience here today. So, Nikayla, tell me a little bit about yourself. I know you're a lead pastor at awakened church in Calgary, Alberta. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:02:40

Yeah, I've been a pastor here in bodes for just over four years. We're a small community parish and we're part of the Canadian Baptist. Before that I was a pastor with the Baptist general conference in Canada. And before that I was a youth pastor for five or six years with AGC associated gospel churches. But ever since that whole sort of 15 year journey I was either doing my bachelor's, my master's or my phd. And for the last seven years I've gotten to teach as a sessional at Ambrose University and Alberta Bible College. At Ambrose I teach Old Testament and I teach biblical theology. My favorite course is a course I built called a biblical theology of human flourishing and it centers on my master's in phd.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:03:24

Research has been all around Sabbath and Jubilee. And so it kind of gets that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:03:28

Question of like what is the vision?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:03:31

Because I think as christians we get caught up on what not to do, what not to be, what not to think.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:36

Yeah, no, that's so good.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:03:38

Yeah, so it's like, well what is the vision, the good life? What does it mean through the lens of scripture to be flourishing? And for me that comes down to Sabbath and Jubilee, the way I understand it.

Wendi Park [: 00:03:49

What do you mean by Jubilee and Sabbath? Give us an understanding of what that means.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:03:55

Yeah, and I have to be careful because it's like my most favorite topic so I can go off and of course I'm in the thick of my phd research on it so I can go on and on and on. But I kind of grew up probably like a lot of people listening where I understood what the Sabbath day was. I guess in my tradition it was.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:04:13

Sunday and it's like my parents didn't.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:04:15

Really make a big deal of it, but I knew that at grandma's house you probably weren't going to go outside and play.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:04:21

Or it was just like you're not supposed to do certain things on this day. And when I think of the Ten.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:04:26

Commandments, you have like do not kill and you have keep the Sabbath. And it's hard to think of those two as being equal, like on the same plane. And I remember reading in the New Testament always being really intrigued by the way Jesus would get in trouble on the Sabbath day because Jesus would be healing someone most often and religious leaders would approach him like, hey, you're not.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:04:49

Allowed to do that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:04:50

I remember just thinking, oh, that's ridiculous. Like Jesus is doing something good, he's helping people like who are these old religious leaders who are so jedgy? And then you just kind of move on from the story.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:02

But then know.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:03

I did my master's in the Old Testament and it's like we can't deny that the Sabbath command was extremely important in the Old Testament, it's called the sign of the mosaic Covenant. The same as like circumcision is the sign of the abrahamic covenant or the rainbow, the sign of the Noah Covenant. This is a really important thing.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:19

The Sabbath day is everything in the.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:22

Old Testament, especially after the exile, when there's no more temple. Observing the Sabbath is sort of how you differentiated yourself from all the other cultures. So I just couldn't accept that Jesus was like, oh, it doesn't really matter if you got stuff to do on.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:37

A Sunday, don't be so legalistic.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:40

And Jesus has that line that's like, sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:44

It's fine.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:05:45

And I'm just like, that doesn't line up with the rest of the story, that Jesus is like, this one doesn't matter. And especially in our culture now, when we're all very burnt out and exhausted, and not just because we've been like moving our bodies for six days, but we're exhausted in our hearts, right in.

Wendi Park [: 00:06:01

Our psyche, especially post pandemic, we're trying to find those rhythms. We're trying to catch up, we're trying to unfortunately get back to normal. And yeah, we're feeling.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:12

So I noticed people are tired, people are burnt out.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:15

And when I really get into the.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:17

Old Testament and start looking at what Sabbath is, the thing that blows my mind, which I feel like we've forgotten as a church in the west, and we could just park our cars here for the next decade, is that the.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:27

Sabbath day is a glimpse of the full picture.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:31

You have every seven days, this sort.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:34

Of thing you do for one day.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:35

Which maybe doesn't feel very significant, where everybody rests, but then every seven years there's the sabbatical year. So this is a full year where people who are enslaved are released to freedom and all debts are forgiven, the land rests. So we don't take from the land, the land gets a break from giving.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:57

And then that'd be pretty radical, that'd.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:06:59

Have pretty big economic implications. And then every 7th Sabbath year, so every 50th year, once a generation, you have this year of Jubilee. And Jubilee is like the Sabbath year, but much bigger, a much bigger deal, and it includes the return of ancestral land. So you see this as like the year of Jubilee is what protects us from intergenerational poverty. Because you might have a family that suffers for reasons that it's not their fault. Like someone gets sick, a sudden death, a natural disaster, a house burns down, a basement floods, there's all sorts of ways that someone could sort of get behind, right? And then their kids grow up, but they can't pay for college. Their kids have to get a student loan. And then those kids have a hard time paying off their student loan.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:07:47

They got to work while they're in college. They don't get the best grades, they don't get the best jobs. And you just see this poverty can just follow them generation to generation. And year of, Jubilee says, no, once per generation, we're going to redistribute the wealth.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:07:59

All debts are forgiven.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:08:00

And that's not debts forgiven. Like, the lady at church owes me $40. This is like, the bank calls and forgives you for your mortgage. The bank calls and forgives you for your student loans, your car payment. We forgive you.

Wendi Park [: 00:08:13

And is there a correlation to what our modern day we would know as being jubilated like joy? Is that the derivative of what we would experience as joy?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:08:24

Yes, absolutely. The word that Jubilee is associated with is release. And it's a joyful release, as in being released from bondage, like released from slavery, released from captivity, released from an abusive contract that you've been obligated to and released from debt. So you think when you sign a contract with the bank, when you get.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:08:45

A mortgage, so it's like, what are.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:08:47

The bonds that I have? What are the toxic relationships I have with the bank, with visa, Mastercard, those burdens? Just what would it feel like to suddenly on one day, you get, like three phone calls in a row, your debts are forgiven. Your debts are forgiven. Your debts are forgiven.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:04

I have people in my life that have gone through a lot, that are going through a lot, that have had generational issues that they are now living through in the current day. And I know that they would love that call. They would love to be released, and we're working with them for release in some ways, but it's not coming in the same way. I would love to dive into a little bit of your. You recently wrote an article that really, I love. The title in itself is only demons possess things like, what a captivating title that is. And you talk about the correlation of capitalism versus Jubilee. Can we talk a little bit about that? How does capitalism.

Wendi Park [: 00:09:44

How is that antithetical to Jubilee?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:09:48

Yeah. In order to answer this question, well, and I'm going to do this quickly. And so I guess this is just my Bible nerdy brain, but the beginning of the entire biblical story is the exodus from Egypt. And so you have these people who.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:09:59

Are enslaved to pharaoh.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:01

And when you first meet Pharaoh and the enslaved people in the Bible, it's at the end of Genesis where pharaoh has all of the wealth, he has control of all of the food. And the people of the land are.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:11

Coming to pharaoh, giving him all of.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:13

Their money to get grain. They go home, they run out of grain. They return, they sell their livestock to get grain.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:20

They go home, they run out of grain.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:21

Then they begin to sell themselves as debt slaves. And then the book of EXoDus opens, and The EnTIre PeoPle, all of the.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:28

HEBrew people, are enslaved to the one.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:10:31

Who has control over all of the resources. He is the one on top. So this liberation narrative where Yahweh, God rescues the people from Pharaoh, iT's kind of set up where there's two kings, Yahweh and pharaoh. So pharaoh manages food this way. Pharaoh manages the economy this wAy. Pharaoh absolutely believes that if you work hard, you get rich, and if you're LaZy, you get poor. He believes in his system. And Yahweh's system is entirely AntitHetIcal to Pharaoh's system.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:02

They are diametrically opposed. When Jesus says, you cannot serve both.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:05

God and mammon, it's you cannot serve both Yahweh and Pharaoh.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:10

So the system, so every time you have this language of empire, whether it's the king of BaBylON or the CaesAr.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:16

Of Rome, you always have to call.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:18

To mind that Pharaoh character who has control of everything and the way he has control of everything, is this predatory debt economy. So you are in debt, and he manages everything.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:29

You can't buy food, you can't buy ShElTEr, and so you have this system.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:34

That just benefits from people's poverty.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:36

Wow.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:37

It depends on debt. And the liberation story of our faith is God rescuing PeoPle from Egypt. Now before they go from Egypt into their own land, there's this 40 year wilderness wandering where an entire generation has.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:55

To unlearn Egypt before they can become.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:11:58

The alternative thing, which is what holiness means in the Bible. Set apart, you will not run your economy the way Pharaoh does. You will be set apart. And so the law, where we get the Sabbath day, the SAbbath Year Jubilee, love your neighbor as yourself. These are all texts of resistance to shape a people's imagination, to be alternative to PhaRaoh's. So PhARAoh does not know about SabbAth resT. And the wild thing is in the Ten Commandments in the book of Deuteronomy, most people only know the Ten Commandments because they memorized it in Sunday school. So you just get the short version, like, do not kill, do not steal, keep the Sabbath, honor your mom and dad.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:12:36

Yeah, but the full text in the Sabbath one is radical because it says, you shall keep the Sabbath. Both you, your sons and daughters, your male and female slaves, the foreigner and the immigrant among you, and all of your livestock. So you realize this command is not being spoken to everyone.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:12:54

An enslaved person can't take a day off.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:12:56

They do not have access to that privilege. This command is being spoken to the landowners, who have enough wealth to have.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:13:04

Debt, slaves, and to keep the Sabbath.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:13:06

Command is to make sure on this day, both you and the people below you have rest equal to you. So in deuteronomy, it's like you, your sons and daughters, your male and female slaves, the foreigner, the immigrant, all of your livestock, like your slave animals, because you yourselves were slaves in Egypt. You must keep the Sabbath so that your slaves can rest as well as you can.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:29

So in that way, it is an act of resistance.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:13:32

Yeah.

Wendi Park [: 00:13:33

And I'm curious, as a pastor, you're a lead pastor in your church. Awaken. How do you work in a capitalistic society, a culture that really thrives on bank cards and get rich and move up the ladder, a pharaoh mentality. How are you wrestling through this in your pastoral work? How do you embody that as a local church?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:13:57

Yeah, on a really practical level. And I think anybody listening who's in church leadership will relate, is people's volunteer capacity. Now, post pandemic is so much lower than before.

Wendi Park [: 00:14:08

Oh, I hear it all the time from pastors.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:14:11

Yes, no one wants to volunteer anymore. And it's weird because as a pastor, I'm actually really proud of my congregants because they're like, setting boundaries. They're like, my time is precious to me, my energy is precious to me, and I actually can't do this. I'm cheering them on for that self advocacy. But then I'm like, dang, we don't have any volunteers. We're going to have to shut these ministries down. And I'm noticing it's like, not my congregant specifically. Like, everyone is, like, in this system of capitalism, the system that we currently live under.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:14:42

Of course, you don't have any extra time and energy to work towards the common good. My mortgage is way more than I can afford. Even from my generation to my parents.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:14:53

Generation, my mortgage could not be paid.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:14:56

Unless my spouse and I were dual income, which means our kids have to go into childcare, which means I'm only making 475 an hour after I pay for childcare, right. So I actually have to work 60 hours a week in order for the $4.75 I make after childcare to go towards the bills.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:14

Wow.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:15

I try to sometimes wake up at: 04:00

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:19

Hours of work in before the day.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:21

Starts so that I don't take away time from my kids.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:24

And you add it up, and add it up and you're like, when do you sleep?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:28

When do you rest?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:30

Never.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:30

I can't.

Wendi Park [: 00:15:31

I'm listening. I'm listening. I'm feeling it right now.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:34

Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:35

If I get a day off work, I'm coming home to clean. I'm coming home to catch up on laundry.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:39

Laundry day? Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:40

So then I get an email from the pastor that's like, do you want to take on a Sunday school class?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:44

No, I can't.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:46

My life, my strength, my heart, my.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:49

Soul, my body belongs to Pharaoh.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:15:52

I have bills to pay. I have a visa. I have a line of credit. I have no imagination for life outside of this system.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:00

It's just the way it is.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:02

And so I have this massive house, and I don't know any of my neighbors, and I suspect they're all threats. So I put my time and money into building security systems and protecting my stuff because I've been trained to believe that all of my energy goes into paying for this stuff. So then once I have it, I must put any last remnants of energy into protecting it. So if you break into my house, I need to know I have the right to shoot.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:30

Right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:31

And somehow the idea of, like, love your neighbor as yourself is just gone.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:34

Yeah, I can't.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:36

And so as a pastor, I'm like, I don't want to take, and I don't want to guilt people and say, but please find time. Please find time to come help with the church.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:45

I need it now. People are at church and they're laboring.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:50

And the tank is being drained, even by the church. I don't want that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:54

Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:16:55

And so it's been really profound, this church, when it was planted, I have so much respect for the people who had the vision. Even though we're Baptists, evangelicals, the church was very much planted with this parish model where everybody lives in the neighborhood. And the idea was that we're going to share stuff. Like, we don't all need a lawnmower. You mow your lawn eight times a year, right? We'll just share a lawn mower. We don't all need camping gear. I'll have the tent. You have the sleeping bags.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:23

That guy's got the cool water filter.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:25

And then we all have what we need.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:27

And so this group just created this sense of common ownership. And there was like a Facebook group just for the church and then just ways that the church could communicate. And it's incredible to watch people be like, hey, my brother in law is in town. I need a pair of men's skate, size ten. Oh, I got a pair. Oh, I got a pair. I need this, I need that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:47

And suddenly it's like, I have a.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:48

Ten year old and a six year old. I've never bought them clothing because there's kids in my community who are older than my kids, and they give me their clothes.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:55

I don't buy winter boots.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:17:57

So I'm like, which kid in the community just outgrew their boots?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:18:00

And it's that idea of it's breaking.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:18:02

Away from the capitalist, like, christian savior mentality, where I'm going to be the benefactor that goes and helps people. I'm going to be someone that asks for help.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:18:12

That's right.

Wendi Park [: 00:18:13

And community really becomes that resistance towards capitalism of individualism, materialism, the things that we're enslaved to. Because let's face it, I'm all for community, but it takes sacrifice to think differently than what I feel. The waters I swim in wants me to have it for myself, the time for myself, and it's sacrifice to share it with others. And yet the payback for that or the results of that when we live in equitable community is so amazing.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:18:46

And I think what happens in capitalist system is your value in society is based on how productive you can be. And the proof of your productivity is how nice your things are. And so I can't actually invite you over to my house until I've spent an hour cleaning. Because if you could see how I actually live and you actually could see how exhausted and burnt out and overwhelmed.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:08

I am, then you would know that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:10

I'm not actually productive and I don't actually have value. So I have to rage clean for 20 minutes and then have you over and try not to break and try not to crack because you might think that there's something wrong with me because my value is based on having it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:24

All together and being productive. You have to.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:27

That's how you make it. So then you have to push through.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:30

Ego and how Christian is that to.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:34

Invite someone in and say, do you want to help me climb my laundry mountain today? Our kids could play in the other room, and you and I could just sit down in front of this mountain. I have not folded my laundry in four weeks, and some of it might smell mildewing. You're going to help me, and I'll get that back in the wash and we'll fold this together and connect. It's like, oh, my. Never.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:19:56

If someone could see, I could never do that. And then I all of a sudden.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:00

Hear Paul saying, boast in your weaknesses.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:02

Boast, say, look.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:04

And it becomes radically anti capitalist to ask for help. And you can't ask for help until you can acknowledge that you need help.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:12

That's right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:13

Which is what it means to tell the truth.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:15

And if you go back to that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:17

Exodus liberation story, it begins in exodus three. God appears in a burning bush and.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:22

Says, I've heard the cries of my people.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:24

Which means the people initiated emancipation because.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:29

They dared to cry out.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:31

It's like nothing in the system is going to change. If I can't call my neighbor and cry out and say, I need help, I'm overwhelmed. Can we share a lawnmower?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:40

You know what I mean?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:41

Like, you cry out, and it's when you bring your pain to speech and.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:44

Tell the truth that you energize an.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:47

Alternative way of living, a movement. And so it's like, as a Christian, sometimes it's like, do you guys want to volunteer? And we can be helpers and saviors and rescue the poor people.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:20:57

It's like, what if the way of Christ is to tell the truth that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:02

This system isn't working?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:03

That's right. In the capitalist system, I think of.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:06

Like, my grandparents or my parents even.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:09

It's like dad has to work 60.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:11

Hours a week at a job he hates, at a job that is destroying the environment, a job that is absolutely oppressive. And the only way he can do.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:20

That is if there's a wife at.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:22

Home making sure all the laundry is done, the cooking is done, the grocery shopping is done, and all of that. So he doesn't have to worry about it. He can put his entire work and allegiance into serving the economy because he has a wife at home managing the rest of it. And if the church is co opted by capitalism, we say that's biblical manhood and biblical womanhood. I'm like, how many women are we.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:45

Going to sacrifice to Pharaoh's womanhood?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:49

How many men are we going to.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:50

Sacrifice to Pharaoh's manhood?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:53

And when we say God is coming.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:21:56

To liberate us from our idols, it's.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:22:00

What'S best for the economy. Yeah, but innocent human beings are suffering.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:22:03

Yeah, but the economy.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:22:06

But if we run out of water, like, if we poison all the headwaters, but the economy, that's right. That's the Aina I just think as a pastor, I used to think, how could I rally people to go out and rescue? And now I'm like, how could we.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:22:22

Create safe space so that people could.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:22:25

Admit that they need to be rescued?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:22:28

That's right.

Wendi Park [: 00:22:29

If we could start off in that premise and in that humble posture to receive help and to need others, I think that's our number one problem often within the church is that do we really need God and do we really need others? If we could learn to need each other, how God created, that's not a deficit, actually, God created us for that. And so we've somehow, in a capitalistic view, that's somehow we're not self sufficient enough or that we are less than if we are interdependent on each other. And yet that is the strength, that is the jubilee, that is the Sabbath that God is inviting us into so that we might have joy.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:23:08

Oh, totally. It's that movement of like, when we start sharing things and admitting that we have needs and boasting in our weaknesses, we discover friendship and intimacy and a sense of, I'm going to be okay.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:23:21

And love flows from that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:23:24

And it's like, that's the space that you show up and you're like, I want to participate in more of this. And so with the article I wrote in the title, only demons possess things, I was really reflecting on the difference between a gift economy and a wage economy.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:23:39

A wage economy is like, you work for me and I pay you, so it's an exchange. Right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:23:46

Whereas a gift economy, you don't have to pay back.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:23:49

Right.

Wendi Park [: 00:23:50

I love the story that you included, and we'll include the link in the show notes, if you're okay with that, for your article. But the story you talked about with an elder where you painstakingly made a quilt as a gift, and it was very powerful. Can you briefly share that story?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:08

Yeah, this is the thing that blew my mind.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:11

I've been super privileged.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:13

My husband got a job with an indigenous led agency several years ago, and part of his job, he was working alongside this Cree elder and helping kind of set up for ceremony. And it was like a really special role.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:24

And he sort of got to participate.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:26

And learn from this elder. And sometimes at a special event, I.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:29

Would kind of come along in the most hospitable community and really loved it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:34

But growing up in a very white evangelical albertan context, I had a lot.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:40

Of hangups in my heart and fears.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:24:43

About the idea of indigenous ceremony. And I'm a pastor, and so there was like complex feelings there. But sure enough, I'm just encountering the most generous, humble, kind people. And I'm like, every ceremony, every prayer, all of this, I'm like, this sounds like psalm 115. This sounds like Jeremiah 20. This feels so jesusy. And I'll never forget the moment where I felt really convicted. I knew that there was this tradition of bringing gifts for the elder as like an offering or something else.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:14

Like, oh, it just sounds like a payment. Like, if I bring a gift of.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:17

$20, that's not a gift.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:19

I'm just paying $20 to participate in this event. This isn't really a gift. And then I was a little bit, just in my heart being like, oh, gift. Oh, don't forget to bring your payment. And then my husband's like, it's not.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:28

A payment, it's a gift.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:29

And I had this kind of attitude, and there was this ceremony that I was going to, and I had known kind of months in advance that I.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:36

Was going to go and there would.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:37

Be like, a special part of the ceremony where the elder would honor me. And I was excited, but I knew.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:42

I had to bring a gift.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:43

They don't tell you it's not like an actual wage where it's like, your gift should be $50.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:47

It's like, it's just a gift.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:25:48

I'm like, what kind of gift? What are we talking? It should just be something that means a lot to you or like something that comes from your heart. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to make a quilt. I had some fabric and my sewing machine was out.

Wendi Park [: 00:26:00

Wow, that's ambitious.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:01

Yeah, it was definitely. This was my enneagram three. So I put together this quilt and I was excited because I was going to show off how awesome I am. And when I arrived at the ceremony, it was in a gift bag. And I kind of presented my gift bag thinking that the elder would, like, pull it out of the bag in front of all of these people there, and they'd be like, wow, did you make that? You're amazing. And that's not what happened. He kind of went outside of the.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:26

Lodge and I kind of pulled it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:27

Out, but I hadn't even pulled it all the way out. And he was like, oh, that's beautiful.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:30

Great.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:30

You can put it back in the bag. Thanks. And I was like, hey, what do I do?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:34

He's like, oh, that's fine. You can just put it in the bag.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:36

And I was like, what? You owe me. And this is how I feel about debt.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:41

You owe me.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:43

You owed me.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:43

Respect.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:43

You owed me gratitude. You owed me a thank you. You owed me honor.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:47

Like, oh, I kind of felt a little bit cheated there.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:50

And obviously I'm kind of just being very over generalizing about the complex feelings.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:55

But later on, there was this very.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:26:57

Old woman, and she sort of noticed the quilt because at this point, it was sort of out of the bag on the table. And she's like, oh, wow. And she was very old, and she was speaking slowly, and it was like, this is very beautiful. And then the elder who next to her, he kind of looked really young. He was like, it's for you.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:14

It's a gift. And she pulled it out.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:16

Oh, thank you, mushroom. Thank you. It's so beautiful.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:18

It's so beautiful. And she kind of wrapped it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:21

Oh, I love it. And folded it up, and she's holding it, and I'm sitting right there. Is he going to tell her that? And I know this guy loves to tease and make fun.

Wendi Park [: 00:27:31

Your credit rollings at the end.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:33

He's totally, like, winking. And there's nothing, like, cruel, I think just my very white, western wage economy self was like, this transaction didn't go down the way it's supposed to. There should be an equal exchange here. Like, if I give you a gift, if I give you a sweater and you're not paying me, you at least have to wear the sweater every time you see me. There's got to be some kind of exchange here, right? Or else you're stealing from me. And so eventually, at the end of.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:57

The lodge, I asked him about it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:27:59

In a sort of playful way, and then he responded playfully back, and he.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:03

Said, it's a gift.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:04

And I was like, I know it was a gift. And he's like, but gifts are forgiving. And I was like, I'm not getting it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:10

And he's like, a gift has to.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:11

Always be a gift. If you give me a gift, the best way I honor it is I protect it from ever becoming a possession. So you give me this quilt you made, and I say, this is mine now. I don't want anybody to touch it and get their greasy fingers on. It's mine, right?

Wendi Park [: 00:28:26

It becomes a possession.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:27

Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:27

And then it just goes out. Sometimes on display, but otherwise it's folded up in my closet, and eventually it just stays there because it goes out of fashion. Because the real reason we have possessions is to show the world we're productive and we have trendy stuff. It just goes up in the closet.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:40

And then you die.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:41

And then your children take it to.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:43

Goodwill and I'm like, like, oh.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:28:45

He's like, I didn't want that. I don't want that. He's like, it was a gift. You bring a gift, and then that woman says, I love it. She'll have it at her house, and someone will be there, maybe one of her grandchildren, and she'll give it to them as a gift. And then it will go on as a gift, and it will go on as a gift.

Wendi Park [: 00:28:59

And what a beautiful example of God's gift to us. It's truly a gift that cannot be earned. There's no transaction.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:06

Yes.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:07

And it doesn't become a possession. And suddenly I think about church community and volunteering again of like, we talk about spiritual gifts. I have the gift of hospitality. Is it a possession or a gift?

Wendi Park [: 00:29:18

I possess hospitality.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:20

Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:20

I'm like, it's a gift. Which means you have to keep giving it.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:23

Right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:23

It's like, I have the gift of teaching, then give it.

Wendi Park [: 00:29:26

And God doesn't want to enslave us into volunteerism.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:30

That's right.

Wendi Park [: 00:29:31

Even though we freely get gifts from God, he's desiring us to gift him our service. Gift him not out of transaction.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:29:39

That's right.

Wendi Park [: 00:29:40

And that's so beautiful. I don't know if you've seen what we're doing at care impact. We have this online technology called the care portal. And one of the things that we love to do is help churches and community create that community. And so a social worker or a case worker who knows a family in need or a youth aging out, they can enter with that person's permission, enter in a specific needs that this community is having. Because, let's face it, we don't know our neighbors anymore. We don't know who's sleeping on the floor, who has bedbugs and who's going through abuse. We just don't know the privacy acts and our individualism.

Wendi Park [: 00:30:16

So to counterattack that lack of community, we've been using the care portal, so now we can identify where the needs are because the organizations that we're working with in the cities, they're able to put those needs in. And the churches that we are working with and training to respond are able to respond to that. What we're saying specifically is some of the words you're saying, it's not a transaction.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:30:39

Yeah.

Wendi Park [: 00:30:39

It's a gift. It's actually a gift of connection more than the possession.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:30:44

Yes.

Wendi Park [: 00:30:44

This is actually a need. They do need some beds, and they do need support so that that family can reunify. But let's face it, it can be very hard. I put myself into your shoes when you're saying, hey, wait a minute, I feel gypped a little bit. Nobody said thank you or, there's a need to have that reciprocated. But I love the idea of gifting things forward. And I would say not just the things we give, but the connections we make are gifts.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:31:15

There's a tradition on the west coast, indigenous nations there called the potlatch.

Wendi Park [: 00:31:21

Yes, the Salish.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:31:22

It's where we get the word potluck from.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:31:24

Right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:31:24

Church potluck. That when the settler missionaries were like, oh, potluck.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:31:28

Potlatch.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:31:29

And so my understanding of potlatch is that there's a big party. You have a big party, and at the end of the night, you give everything you own away. And the man in the community who's able to give the most away is the most highly esteemed man. So he would be, like, the chief or have a leadership role because he's judged by how much he gives away, not how much he can keep. And I know for me, as a white settler who grew up in hyper individualistic capitalism, I'm like, well, how could you do that if you came to my house, Wendy? And at the end of the night, I'm like, would you like my laptop? And then to your husband, I'm like, here's my. Like, no, that doesn't work. Unless you were inviting me to a.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:10

Party at your house next week.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:12

And at the end of the night, I was going to get a laptop and my husband was going to get a car. And so it only works if the whole community is shaped by it. It can't be a private spirituality. It's a public participation in an alternative economy. And so the men who can give the most away like to be known by your generosity. This idea, I think about it so.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:34

Often, and when I read Philippians two.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:37

It'S like, jesus, though in his very.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:40

Nature is God never exploited that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:43

He gave it all away, right? He didn't possess the power of God and say, this is mine. I have it. You don't. I'm better than you. I'm all powerful.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:52

You're nothing.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:32:53

He gave it all away. I'm like, if our God is a potlatching God and the one who is able to give the most away is.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:01

The most trustworthy, then Jesus is the.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:04

Trustworthy one because he gave all away. And I think we often end up.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:08

Burning ourselves out at church because we're.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:11

Still trying to say all to him.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:13

I owe, like, jesus gave me his life.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:16

The least I could do is volunteer at my church for 20 hours a week. It's not a transaction.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:21

That's right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:22

So our mind is still being shaped by Pharaoh's economy, and we're tired, and.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:27

God's, like, giving it away.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:29

I remember that Cree elder told Akayla, if you actually joined our community, didn't just pop in once in a while for a spiritual top up. I was like, oh, boy, that's what people do at church, but actually move into the neighborhood, incarnate, become flesh among.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:45

Us, join us as equals.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:33:48

Not like a missionary project. You're going to be a really old lady one day, and you're going to come over to the lodge. She's like, I'll be dead and gone by then, and you'll be old, and you'll see a tattered up quilt over there and a young mom nursing her.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:00

Baby under it, and you'll say, I know that quilt. And she'll say, it's a gift, and she'll give it to you, and that quilt will make its way back.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:08

And so when you give your things away, you know that they circle back. You're not losing it forever. So if I know that I'm going to get this quilt back, or I know that this quilt one day is going to go to my great great.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:21

Great granddaughter, then I'm going to slow.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:24

Down and I'm going to make every.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:26

Stitch with all my love.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:28

And that quilt is a gift. The one I ordered on Amazon that was made in a factory by someone who is enslaved, who got the material from a land that is being exploited so hard, it's literally on, like, chemical life support. That quilt isn't going to make it past my house. It's going to be six months and.

Wendi Park [: 00:34:48

Go to Goodwill and spend 200 years in the landfill trying to disintegrate.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:53

Right? Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:34:54

Our possessions will outlast us, and we're alone. I notice people are feeling loneliness.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:02

They're feeling extremely overwhelmed and tired.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:06

And we read the news, and we just feel despair, like there's no hope.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:12

Right? Yeah.

Wendi Park [: 00:35:13

Well, Nikayla, there is so much more we're going to have to have you back. But there's so much more we could talk about on this. I'm mindful of the time, but just to wrap up here, how can we bring back the joy? How can we pursue joy this Christmas in a non capitalistic, pseudo joy kind of way? What is one thing that we can all be challenged by?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:37

I know you're like, really quick wrap up. What's a real good thing. I'm like, sort of in Genesis, we're slowly.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:44

I really believe that when I turn my eye towards the gifts I've received.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:50

Towards what I already have, will stir.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:52

In me a gratitude, which will be.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:35:55

A light that shines in that darkness of jealousy and resentment.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:00

And so, I guess just a sort.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:02

Of very small example, but one thing that my family started doing for Christmas. So for stockings, I don't rush out.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:08

And try and find cheap trinkets that.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:10

Will sit in a landfill forever to stuff in a stocking. Instead, what we do is the day before Christmas, I'll go through the house and find things that we already own that are just silly things we take for granted but we really appreciate, and we put them in each other's stocking. So before you open any gifts on Christmas morning, I have my stocking. And so my kids and my husband have collected things in my house.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:30

So I sit down, I'm like, hey.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:31

This is my favorite pepper mill. Hey, this is my favorite coffee mug. You guys know this is my favorite mug. And, like, mom's favorite socks.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:39

Nice.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:39

And it's this moment of, like, I already have so many things I love. I love these things so much.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:43

Thank you, guys.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:44

Thanks for reminding me of the things I already have that I love. And then you sit down and open gifts, and it's like the joy comes from participating in that gift economy and extending release to one another.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:56

And I even think at the heart.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:36:58

Of our faith, that's what it means to forgive, is to say, I release.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:37:01

You from this debt. You don't owe me anything. Yeah.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:37:05

If you come towards me, come freely, do not come because you're guilted or obligated.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:37:10

Right.

Nakayla Reize [: 00:37:11

I release you. I release you. And for me, advent and joy begins at that place of release, of, like, you don't have to call me back. I release you. And I think if we trust that we've released one another, it becomes really easy to ask for help.

Wendi Park [: 00:37:25

And God loves a cheerful giver when we cheerfully give it away. Not just an aha, I'm just going to be happy and wear a fake smile. But there is something chemically that science will prove the act of giving. In your brain. There are endorphins, dopamine, that goes surging through your body just when we totally release things open handedly to people and give it away. And I just want to encourage our listeners, we can never outgive God, and it's not a transaction. And we don't have to earn God's approval, but joy comes in giving. Joy comes in.

Wendi Park [: 00:38:00

Following our father's footsteps, he gave it all away. And could we be those potlatchers this Christmas? Thank you Nikla, so much for the way you have shared. I so appreciate your perspective and the valuable research and study and just your heart for this topic. Is there a way that our listeners might follow any of your work or stay connected?

Nakayla Reize [: 00:38:25

Yeah, I recently started a substack and I try and put out some of my devotionals, sermon notes and poetry and whatnot a few times a month. So that's just at nikaylarice substack.com and yeah, that would be lovely.

Wendi Park [: 00:38:38

Well, there you have it and I just want to wish everybody a joyful Christmas.

Johan Heinrichs [: 00:38:45

Thank you for joining another conversation on journey with care. We're here to inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative of care Impact, a canadian charity dedicated to connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community. Visit our website at Journeywithcare, CA to connect with care impact. Find the latest updates on our weekly episodes, details about our upcoming events, meetups, and information about our incredible guests. You can also leave us a voice message, share your thoughts, and connect with like minded individuals who are on their own journeys of faith and purpose. Thank you for sharing this podcast with your friends. Together we can explore ways to journey in a good way and always remember to stay curious.