Leading Differently Together | APEST Finale With Daria Nardozza
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Description
In this "Leading Differently Together: APEST" series finale, host Wendi Park is joined by the passionate Daria Nardozza, who delves into her dedication to fostering unity within the Church and promoting positive social change in Canadian cities. Through her work with the City Leaders Collective and Kentro, Daria stresses the importance of Churches praying together, making disciples, serving their communities, and collaborating effectively. She shares her personal journey to Christianity, emphasizing the transformative power of apostolic gifting and calling for a greater balance in Church leadership, including the embrace of women in key roles. The discussion also highlights the challenges in fostering unity and addressing the leadership crisis in the Church, underscoring the need for every believer to discover and mobilize their spiritual gifts. We explore these themes through heartfelt anecdotes and strategic insights, aiming to inspire listeners to enact change and engage more deeply with their faith and community.
Time Stamps
[04:54] Framework for city transformation through 4 ideals.
[08:21] Churches unite to pray, serve, impact community.
[10:27] Promoting church engagement for community vitality and care.
[14:17] Discussion of leadership and apostolic gifting overview.
[17:55] Apostolic leader draws on others' giftings.
[23:03] She helped me communicate my story effectively.
[25:49] Nurturing change within the Church with love.
[29:22] Adapt, learn, and listen for profound teaching.
[32:31] Leadership crisis in Canada and Quebec discussed.
[35:26] Listening, diversity, and building up the Church.
Guest Links
Kentro: https://kentronetwork.ca/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daria-nardozza-1205947b/
Other Links
Reach out to us! https://journeywithcare.ca/podcast
Email: podcast@careimpact.ca
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or get both podcasts on the same RSS feed! https://feeds.captivate.fm/n/careimpact-podcast
CareImpact: careimpact.ca
About the CarePortal: careimpact.ca/careportal
DONATE! Help connect and equip more churches across Canada to effectively journey well in community with children and families: careimpact.ca/donate
Editing and production by Johan Heinrichs: arkpodcasts.ca
Guest Bio:
Daria grew up in the West Island of Montreal (Beaconsfield) and left home at 17 to pursue an education in Christian ministry. In 2005, she graduated from Heritage Bible College with a Bachelor of Religious Education in Counselling. In 2010, while working with 24-7 Prayer (Canada and International), she completed her M.A in Global Urban Ministry, studying the social effects of globalization and urbanization and how churches could better meet the needs of changing cities.
Daria began working part-time with the West Island Network in 2017 with a heart to see more unity among West Island churches and greater community impact through churches collaborating both with one another and the community. She now co-facilitaties the Poverty Reduction and Social Inclusion round table in her neighbourhood and works with many churches and community organizations to help create lasting change.
Daria Nardozza is married to Matthew and together they have one son, Gabriel. When not working, she gets to enjoy mom life with her 6-year-old son, playing soccer and volunteering at his co-op pre-school being some of the best parts. She also enjoys all things food, health/fitness and hiking mountains with her husband.
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
If we are to get serious about our cities in
Speaker:Canada, what is that gonna look like? And, God, do
Speaker:something new and better, because your way is better. How do we do
Speaker:that? How do I make room for God to do bigger and
Speaker:better things in my heart, in my city, in my
Speaker:country. What does loving your neighbor
Speaker:actually look like? This is Journey
Speaker:with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to love
Speaker:others well through real life stories and honest conversations.
Speaker:Hey, curious sojourners. We're wrapping up our series Leading Differently
Speaker:Together. And, oh my goodness, we have been on a journey. We've heard
Speaker:some brilliant and experienced people from across Canada, even
Speaker:one from the UK, who share their stories, their insight, and even
Speaker:challenge us on how we can lead better together. I hope you've been
Speaker:following along, but if you've not caught all the episodes yet, you have some fun
Speaker:binge listening to do as you're stuck in traffic or maybe tackling that load of
Speaker:laundry. Well, in the Ephesians 411 to
Speaker:12, it says, God gives some to be apostles, prophets,
Speaker:evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the
Speaker:work of ministry for building up the body of Christ. And as you
Speaker:followed the series, heard stories, and listened to our guests illustrate what this
Speaker:means in a Canadian context, I'm curious, which of the 5
Speaker:resonate most with you? Were there things that made you curious?
Speaker:We'd love to hear from you. We've got the communication lines open, so head
Speaker:over to journey with care dotca. We read and
Speaker:respond to each and every one of you, so we hope to hear from
Speaker:you. I'm your host, Wendy Park, joined by producer, Johan
Speaker:Hinrichs. And in studio today, we have a special guest who
Speaker:is my favorite person to wrap up this series with me. She's
Speaker:from Montreal, Quebec, and she loves the Church and has made it her
Speaker:life's purpose to help city Church networks thrive all across
Speaker:Canada. Currently, she's the domestic lead with
Speaker:Kentro and COO of City Leaders
Speaker:Collective and part time doctoral student, studying
Speaker:CareImpact Networks. She's a busy person, but I'm thrilled to
Speaker:introduce to you Daria Nardosa. Welcome to the podcast,
Speaker:Daria. Thank you so much, Wendy. It's really a delight to be
Speaker:here with you and, and Johan as well. Well, it it's so
Speaker:good to have you here. And listing off the things, the many hats that
Speaker:you wear, I imagine it took sacrifice to to make us part
Speaker:of your schedule. Tell me a little bit more of those hats that that
Speaker:you wear, maybe starting with the CLC, the the
Speaker:City Leaders Collective. What is that all about? Yeah. Sure.
Speaker:So, City Leaders Collective is something we're just sort
Speaker:of shaping and starting. I'm working on it with, Eric
Speaker:Swanson and Rob Kelly who live in the US, But we all
Speaker:just have a heart to see city networks and city network
Speaker:leaders flourish, and have developed some frameworks
Speaker:around that and just bringing the city Church together for
Speaker:the good of the city. I've been doing this work in Canada for the last
Speaker:few years. Well, on a Canada wide level for the last few years,
Speaker:and led a city network in the West Island of Montreal, for
Speaker:about 5 years. And just, yeah, something I'm super
Speaker:passionate about, seeing happen. And then, I'm also doing my my doctoral
Speaker:studies with Eric and Rob to study CareImpact networks and
Speaker:city networks as well, just trying to figure out what this very
Speaker:new thing looks like. Yeah. And there's many ways
Speaker:that we have connected and become good friends over this, but we've really geeked out
Speaker:on these topics, and I have really valued having
Speaker:conversations with you because you are so focused
Speaker:website for CLC, your mission statement is very similar to
Speaker:ours but unique, but you also connect and equip. We
Speaker:connect and equip the whole Church. We're working more on the congregation members.
Speaker:How do we get them flourishing in the communities? But your mission statement, actually,
Speaker:is to connect and equip city network leaders for the flourishing
Speaker:of their cities. So looking at that whole network, can you tell me a little
Speaker:bit Wendi we say network, what do you mean by
Speaker:network? Yeah. So we do kinda three things, which is
Speaker:connecting like you do, but helping city
Speaker:networks and city network leaders have this place to connect
Speaker:and and grow with each other. And we we try to sort
Speaker:of curate tools and content to help them do that, and we have a couple
Speaker:frameworks. And then we coach. We just started a coaching
Speaker:cohort. Now we have 20 cities about that are part of that. So
Speaker:coaching city networks really to be able to grow and
Speaker:kind of win at their day job. But a lot of people are kinda like,
Speaker:well, what? I don't get it. Like, what's a city network? Mhmm. That's sort of
Speaker:the first question, and and Rob, who I work with, sort
Speaker:of created this framework. And, I mean, a framework is just a framework. It's not
Speaker:like capital t truth, but it's just something that's easy and portable
Speaker:to help us explain what is a city network. And so if you could
Speaker:imagine, like, a Venn diagram, you know, with 3 circles, and if and
Speaker:if the middle is transform lives in cities, we
Speaker:would say we would do that through the 4 greats, which, you know,
Speaker:one of the circles would be love, which is the great commandment. You
Speaker:know, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. So how are we doing that
Speaker:in a city? And then making disciples, which would be the great
Speaker:commission, and, you know, we're called to go and make disciples, and
Speaker:then to serve, which is the great compassion, and I would even say
Speaker:justice, but how are we serving and loving our
Speaker:communities and our neighbors and our cities, and then the great
Speaker:collaboration, which is really what Jesus prayed in John 17, that the Church
Speaker:would be 1 in the city. And so how are we doing those three
Speaker:things together, the 4 greats, the great commandment, the great
Speaker:commission, the great compassion, and doing that collaboratively
Speaker:in a city so that we could see true city transformation. And
Speaker:so that's sort of what a city network leader would
Speaker:wake up and think about in the morning. Like, how are we doing that as
Speaker:a city Church in our community? And then I guess that kinda leads to what
Speaker:what's Kentro. Right. And so I I would say
Speaker:Kentro, you know, they're doing the great compassion really well.
Speaker:They're networking people across Canada. We're networking people
Speaker:across Canada to better understand Christian community development
Speaker:and how we work with our cities and with our
Speaker:communities to see transformation happen because that's really
Speaker:what we're called to as the Church of the city. And just for context,
Speaker:yeah, and I'm part of that advisory team. We've been helping get it off
Speaker:the ground together with many others as well. But
Speaker:there's actually 22100 Canadian Christian charities
Speaker:doing local community development across our country. That's a lot.
Speaker:And and in context with Churches, there's over
Speaker:25,000 Churches across Canada. And they also
Speaker:have a desire to to be in a community engagement, to
Speaker:collaborate, but sometimes the infrastructure isn't there or or
Speaker:the way to, the how to. The willpower is there, but
Speaker:the how power is maybe, needing development here at a
Speaker:local level. And I would imagine back to the networking
Speaker:piece, what do you see across our nation? Meng, you said there
Speaker:was 20 city networks that you've identified and that you're working with at
Speaker:different levels. Are they all the same, or do you see
Speaker:wide differences, variety in how they they
Speaker:work together in their own cities? Yeah. No. They're
Speaker:they're definitely not all the same. And I and even as I learn more about
Speaker:city networks that are happening in the US and around the
Speaker:world, I mean, they all, to some degree, look different because every
Speaker:city is different, and the people in the city are different. And
Speaker:so, I mean, like I said, this framework is just a framework. But, for
Speaker:example, what this looked like in the West Island, how we did
Speaker:this, the great commandment. I mean, the West Island network was sort of birthed
Speaker:out of, an exegetical study of the community where pastors started to
Speaker:pray together, which led to them
Speaker:eventually hiring me to say, help us do this better. And so
Speaker:to do the great commandment, we prayed together 4 times a year.
Speaker:We brought the Churches together beyond just the pastors to pray together for the
Speaker:city. We did different initiatives like that. And then making
Speaker:disciples, I mean, that's probably something we didn't do as
Speaker:well. However, you know, something I was very intentional about as
Speaker:city network leader is that I met with every single mayor in my community, every
Speaker:community organization, and so everything was very relational,
Speaker:representing Churches that care about their neighborhood and their community. And so
Speaker:and then every month, I would write a write up on how the Church could
Speaker:pray for this mayor, this city, this community organization,
Speaker:and then got them involved with that. And then, eventually, I
Speaker:also discovered that working with pastors was sometimes
Speaker:to really get out and do the great compassion and to serve our community
Speaker:was sometimes hard to just do with our pastor's network. And so I I
Speaker:asked all the pastors to recommend someone on their team that from their
Speaker:Church that really has a heart for their neighborhood and their community. And we we
Speaker:formed this CATE team, community action and impact team, where
Speaker:together as Churches, we discovered how we could better serve our community.
Speaker:And I also facilitated in our community our poverty reduction and social
Speaker:inclusion roundtable and just got super involved with serving the
Speaker:community, but doing that with the Church, with the community, and really trying to
Speaker:bridge those gaps of working collaboratively in
Speaker:our city. And so that's what it looked like in the West
Speaker:Island of Montreal. We did different events to, helped with,
Speaker:refugee support and, yeah, just really got involved in
Speaker:many different ways. But what it looked like for us in Montreal would look
Speaker:really different for my friend Rob in Charlotte or
Speaker:for my friends in Vancouver or Ottawa, but there is
Speaker:something stirring across the country. You know? And, also, as we see
Speaker:the Church declining, 4,500 Churches have shut down in
Speaker:Canada, I believe they say, in the last 10 years, and they actually predict
Speaker:that in the next 10 years, up to 10,000 Churches might close
Speaker:in Canada. So as the Church declines, we need to
Speaker:learn to work better together as Christians across our
Speaker:city to do those 4 greats really well. Well, I think
Speaker:that's really important to highlight and underscore
Speaker:because we're not just talking how can the Church be
Speaker:social good in the community, but how can we bring
Speaker:nutrients and life and vitality and flourishing within the
Speaker:local Church? Because there's a crisis there as well that, like,
Speaker:there's mutual benefits to cities
Speaker:flourishing for the Church and for the greater community.
Speaker:And that's where CareImpact is excited to partner with you and
Speaker:and some of the developments that you're working on as well as we are able
Speaker:to bring some practical ways that Churches can engage
Speaker:their community for collective CareImpact, working with other Churches, working
Speaker:across ecosystems of different social services and and different
Speaker:sectors working together, and some some resources to I
Speaker:hear some pain points from pastors and leaders saying, we have
Speaker:good vision for compassion, but we you know what? We have a hard time
Speaker:even getting volunteers for our kids program. It's sobering when you said
Speaker:45 100 Churches across Canada have closed and there's
Speaker:more coming. How do we help revitalize
Speaker:the Church and bring discipleship back central so that their
Speaker:congregation members aren't a liability but an asset to the community,
Speaker:an asset to the pastors and leaders that have been called to
Speaker:lead. And, I think that's great. I'm just wondering,
Speaker:though, like, did you just wake up one day and say,
Speaker:hey. I would love to do networking with Churches in Canada and be
Speaker:that specific, or were you a little girl with pigtails saying,
Speaker:one day, I'm gonna, like, do what you see yourselves doing now? Or how did
Speaker:you even get into this? But I'm curious about your backstory of
Speaker:what led you into this very needed role that
Speaker:you have in Canada. Well, I grew up in Montreal, which,
Speaker:as most of you know, doesn't have a large Christian community. I
Speaker:didn't grow up in a Christian home. I'm a second of 4 kids.
Speaker:And actually, when my parents were going through a divorce Wendi was
Speaker:10, 11, 12, my mom shipped the 4 of us off
Speaker:to my grandparents' house 6 hours away, and that's where I first
Speaker:actually learned about Jesus and and sort of was introduced to
Speaker:this faith in God. But I really only became a
Speaker:Christian when I was, 16, which was a pretty big 180 for
Speaker:me without going into all those details. And, actually, when I was
Speaker:17, that was my grade 11 year. And, I saved kind of worked
Speaker:2 jobs, saved all my money so that when I was 17, I could go
Speaker:to bible school and just figure out who God was. And it was there,
Speaker:those couple years, that I sort of felt this call
Speaker:to maybe ministry that I was trying to figure out. Yeah. Long
Speaker:story short, I kinda I ended up doing my bachelor's degree in
Speaker:counseling and psychology, where I think I sort of just counseled my way through my
Speaker:life in that degree and was planning to go do a master's degree in
Speaker:counseling, and I think my pastor saw my apostolic
Speaker:gifting and challenged me and said, no. You shouldn't you
Speaker:you shouldn't do a counseling degree, Daria. And
Speaker:that's when he introduced me to one of my mentors, doctor
Speaker:Glenn Smith, who actually helped me through my my graduate
Speaker:studies in, global urban leadership or ministry, so
Speaker:studying the social effects of globalization and urbanization and what
Speaker:Churches could be doing better in cities, really. And that's what really introduced
Speaker:me to the city work. At the time, I was working for Wendi 7 prayer
Speaker:Canada and international, and so I contextualized all my
Speaker:studies to prayer mission and justice in cities in Canada. And I
Speaker:I mean, I think I always had this heart for the Church and for unity.
Speaker:And then when it came to starting a network for my city, I
Speaker:didn't know what that was. I mean, I I no no one at the time
Speaker:really we're all trying to figure it out. And so as I got more
Speaker:into that, I think that's what really grew my heart for this kind of
Speaker:work. So I find it interesting that you you mentioned that
Speaker:your pastor drew it out of you, that shepherd leader within in the
Speaker:congregation. We've listened to to an episode previous with,
Speaker:my Wendi, reverend Vince Solomon, on shepherding, but
Speaker:he drew it out of you and inspired you and saw that
Speaker:apostolic gift within you that has set you on this path. And I
Speaker:can see how that apostolic gifting
Speaker:has served well for the local Church in
Speaker:Montreal, within your network, but also in the studies
Speaker:and the work you're doing across city networks because it
Speaker:requires a lot of creativity, thinking outside the box, a lot of
Speaker:listening to social context, but also listening to
Speaker:God, all of those things. So that's beautiful to hear. We're
Speaker:wrapping up a series here leading differently together, and I think this is
Speaker:a good segue to reflect on some of the the
Speaker:previous episodes that we've been going through with Ephesians
Speaker:4, and I thought maybe you and I could just
Speaker:dialogue a little bit on each of those those episodes
Speaker:that we've listened to and that I've been able to be a
Speaker:part of. And I would love your perspective too on what you're
Speaker:seeing in city networks, and I imagine that you're working across a lot
Speaker:of diversities of giftings, within that. So let's
Speaker:dive right into the apostolic. I was interviewing Donovan
Speaker:Friesen, pastor here in Winnipeg. Was there anything there
Speaker:that stood out to you and and the work that you're doing in city
Speaker:networks? Well, I I loved Donovan's
Speaker:interview. He was one of my favorites, probably because that's also my
Speaker:It resonated. Right? Oh, really resonated. And I'm like, I
Speaker:wanna be more like him when I grow up. I loved how I assume prophetic
Speaker:is his second. Mhmm. But I don't know. I don't know if he said that.
Speaker:And and I think as an apostolic leader, something and I
Speaker:actually thought that my second was prophetic. It's not. It's evangelism
Speaker:that I and I was kinda disappointed because I I feel like
Speaker:I feel like I I feel like as an apostolic leader, you have to
Speaker:be, like, prophetic because you when you're doing it long enough,
Speaker:you learn that, like, you can't do this without God. Right. And I think
Speaker:Kath would say in the interview with the the prophetic that everyone
Speaker:we can all hear God, and so there's a piece that we can grow that
Speaker:muscle. And I assume that even with your work with 247
Speaker:prayer that you grew that muscle, to be able to hear the voice of God.
Speaker:So that prophetic isn't not there. It's just maybe not as prominent as
Speaker:the other ones that evangelism surprised you, didn't it? Totally. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. And so I just I loved how how he really highlights
Speaker:it in his story that he, as an apostolic leader,
Speaker:also relies heavily on being led by God
Speaker:in prayer. Prayer is, like, such an important part of his life and
Speaker:his ministry and being led by, you know,
Speaker:take taking risks and doing these things that he's done and
Speaker:and being a builder that he talks about. You know, I I think we can't
Speaker:do that as an apostolic leader without being super
Speaker:prayerful and living really close to God. Yeah.
Speaker:And do you notice in the city networks that you're working with across
Speaker:Canada that apostolic leadership integrated,
Speaker:in those those teams across the cities? Do you see that
Speaker:coming out in the work you're doing? Oh, yeah. Like, I feel
Speaker:like most people who lead city networks are those apostolic,
Speaker:entrepreneurial kind of giftings,
Speaker:personalities. Because there's so much unknown about this
Speaker:area, and we're all trying to figure it out, You kinda have to be a
Speaker:little bit that way. And I think one of the apostolic giftings that came
Speaker:out also in in my interview with him is that we need everybody
Speaker:around the table, and and that is important and and that the
Speaker:apostolic leader is able to draw. They're not trying to be the
Speaker:prominent one on the stage, but they're able to see something that's broken or or
Speaker:see something that could be created into alignment
Speaker:and and draw the giftings from other people around them
Speaker:to really cause it to flourish. Because I I
Speaker:also carry that that kind of wiring within
Speaker:me. And I like to start things. It's not like I
Speaker:I leave things hanging, but I also depend on other
Speaker:giftings around me to keep it flourishing. And I think that's
Speaker:an important thing to to highlight of of what he was
Speaker:talking about. We are disruptors, but hopefully for a good
Speaker:for the good when we're healthy. Right? What about, the prophetic? We
Speaker:talked a little bit about, Kath Livesey. One of the things that her
Speaker:quote that I will always have in memory here is she made
Speaker:it so simple and and obviously because she she talks about
Speaker:accessible prophecy is is her ministry, but it's
Speaker:really hearing God speaking and repeating what he says. I
Speaker:thought that was kind of a a profound way of of looking
Speaker:at the prophetic. My question to you is, like, how do
Speaker:you see the prophetic across Canada? How is it expressed?
Speaker:How is it being vocalized across the city networks? Where do you see
Speaker:this expression? Yeah. I love too how she wants to make
Speaker:it more accessible. And I think when we hear prophetic, we think, oh, that's
Speaker:not me or, oh, that's only like for a few, but
Speaker:really that's everybody. Like, we're all sort of, you know, somewhat called
Speaker:to these 5 fold gifts. It's just we are
Speaker:more dominant in some than others. And so I think a lot of
Speaker:people are afraid of the prophetic, but it's just such an area
Speaker:that I've loved growing in, even though it's not my
Speaker:top, but an area that we could all, continue to
Speaker:grow in. And maybe more natural than we often think that
Speaker:it's not like some woo woo type of thing in the
Speaker:sky, some magical moment, but it's just like my sheep
Speaker:hear my voice. And what is God saying through our
Speaker:society, through our Church, through through my personal experience,
Speaker:and just paying attention to that. And and, humbly, being able
Speaker:to bring it into context of community that they're not isolated
Speaker:yaysayers of what has to happen. They're they're not the dominant
Speaker:voice in there, but they're they're the listening part and saying, what is
Speaker:God saying? And being able to create safety within
Speaker:a in a Church or a network to be able to speak those
Speaker:things out and discern, what is of God and what is,
Speaker:what are things that we need to be thinking about. Mhmm. And
Speaker:probably too because it has been, you know, somewhat
Speaker:abused. People are afraid of it. And so and that's
Speaker:unfortunate, but it's like, what is healthy prophetic? That's
Speaker:right. Well, evangelism, we took a little different twist than I think a lot of
Speaker:people might be expecting because they're thinking more of, like, the Billy Graham or
Speaker:the the tracks or telling people about Jesus. We really went on
Speaker:a different tangent with Ellen. Actually, you know Ellen, don't you? I do.
Speaker:I love Ellen. Who doesn't know Ellen? Because Ellen is just very networked
Speaker:across Canada, and, she's an awesome person. But what I
Speaker:loved about what she was talking about in her personal
Speaker:story is just articulating your own story. And
Speaker:and she does this very well through her own marketing and
Speaker:communications business, Graf Martin Communication. But
Speaker:it's really about articulating our own story and identifying what God
Speaker:has done through us. She says it like this, learning how to
Speaker:articulate your own story and identifying what God has done through us, I
Speaker:think, is a massive first step in being able to share the gospel.
Speaker:It's more of what has God done within me, and can we articulate
Speaker:that? And sometimes my my story is probably a lot more
Speaker:boring than yours, Daria. Yours yours has a little bit more sweet and spicy and
Speaker:salt in there from your background, what you've already described.
Speaker:Mine is. It's it's Mennonite. It's it's pretty guarded. It's I've
Speaker:had a beautiful childhood. It's not perfect by no means. But
Speaker:still, what has God done in my life, and can that be brought
Speaker:into the the glory of God? I think it's a it's a
Speaker:challenge for each one of us, Maybe particularly those who haven't
Speaker:had a diverse background, but evangelism is
Speaker:really being able to still see and pursue God's work in our life
Speaker:that we don't just arrive because we have a belief set and now we can
Speaker:tell others how to get to heaven. But it's more of, like, what is God
Speaker:challenging me now? How is my prayer life enhanced, or how did I
Speaker:work through that grief process or disappointment Mhmm.
Speaker:And things like that and be able to connect with others? Any thoughts
Speaker:that you have on evangelism? Well, yeah. No.
Speaker:I I mean, I met Ellen about a year ago, and I remember asking her
Speaker:at at an event something. I just wanted to ask her some quick, like, communication
Speaker:question. And then Mhmm. We ended up having, like, a 2 hour
Speaker:conversation. That sounds like Ellen. Total freebie
Speaker:that she sort of helped me through, like, how well, how do you communicate your
Speaker:story, and how do you and so and she really helped me see that
Speaker:I mean, she's just a gift to Canada in this world, but, you know,
Speaker:that communicating your story is not a a bad thing.
Speaker:Like, sometimes you're afraid to share your story, and you're afraid to,
Speaker:like, be vulnerable, or you're afraid to be who you
Speaker:are, be who God made you to be. And, you know, like, who do you
Speaker:wanna reach with your story, and how do you you know, and and how can
Speaker:you do that well and effectively? And but the whole, like,
Speaker:relationships, you know, like, that's that's evangelism. Right?
Speaker:Especially in a country like we live in. Like,
Speaker:the best I think the best evangelism happens just through
Speaker:real relationship. Yeah. So I love that she
Speaker:brought that perspective. And it's not just about the
Speaker:big event, but how we're actually just living and telling our
Speaker:story of who God is in our life. Well and I think somebody that's
Speaker:gifted and healthy in evangelism, it's
Speaker:more natural in the sense they're they want to tell. They have
Speaker:something to share. It's like they have this best kept secret, and I'm like,
Speaker:oh my goodness. I can't believe you've gotta hear hear this story, or
Speaker:or there's there's something that within your story that resonates with
Speaker:something God has done in my life. It's not a drudgery I should
Speaker:tell them about the lord, thus saith the Lord. It it's
Speaker:more of a attractional magnetic thing, and I love how
Speaker:people like Ellen with the gift of evangelism is able to draw
Speaker:that out of others who may not otherwise see themselves as an evangelist.
Speaker:But we all have the the mandate to share the
Speaker:good news, but they are able to draw that out and make it more accessible
Speaker:to the rest of us so that we can truly be living examples,
Speaker:authentic in community, again, like you said, being relational.
Speaker:Well, I love the conversation I had with my friend,
Speaker:Vincent Solomon, on shepherding. He is a pastor here
Speaker:in Winnipeg, a Cree pastor, and we talked about what that
Speaker:was like within the Anglican Church and his experience as
Speaker:a role of a shepherd. Any thoughts? You deal with a lot of
Speaker:pastors, but as you were listening to to his, was there any
Speaker:thoughts that jumped out at you in that conversation?
Speaker:Mhmm. Well, one thought was that I just love that he knew
Speaker:he was called to be a pastor when he was 10 years old. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:And it's like it's like he he knew. And I do think that
Speaker:my husband's also he's a teacher by vocation. He's a a
Speaker:high school math teacher, but he's a pastor. He's a
Speaker:pastor at heart, and he's known that, I think, his whole life that
Speaker:he has that that gifting. And so Well, and he and he knew
Speaker:that as a young child. And then what I loved also, what followed is
Speaker:that it was confirmed within the
Speaker:Church, within the elders that he sought advice with.
Speaker:They nurtured that, and they saw it in him even when
Speaker:he didn't always see it in himself. And and I know we
Speaker:didn't get into the whole story on the episode, but the
Speaker:struggle with the Church and then the way indigenous were treated and his
Speaker:own Cree experience, hasn't been easy. And I remember
Speaker:asking, how how did you pursue pastoring
Speaker:after you've been so wounded or or and your people and generations have been
Speaker:so wounded? And and I remember profoundly him telling
Speaker:me, well, if I'm not gonna shepherd in those spaces, how can
Speaker:we expect different change and nurturing to happen? And
Speaker:sort of that idea of being that nurturing change that he wanted to
Speaker:see within the Church rather than saying, I'm done with the
Speaker:Church. He loves the Church, and I I think I that's a a real
Speaker:true shepherd heart that, they're going to
Speaker:endure those things for the sake of the
Speaker:people that he is able to care and give them a different experience with
Speaker:a lot of the indigeneity woven in,
Speaker:not as syncretism, but saying how do we be truly authentic
Speaker:ourselves, and how do I nurture your authentic
Speaker:selves in following Jesus. And and I
Speaker:couldn't have, looked for a better example of a friend that,
Speaker:does it every day, with this congregation. So that
Speaker:was a that was a true true gift. Teaching
Speaker:with Amy Jo Smith. Oh my goodness. I enjoyed having that
Speaker:conversation with her, a natural born teacher.
Speaker:And some of the things that she drew out, I think there was so much
Speaker:there for the local Church, for Church networks in
Speaker:how we nurture the body of Christ and even city
Speaker:networks. Was there anything there that stood out to you that you wanted
Speaker:to comment on? Yeah. Some of the most
Speaker:impactful people in my life have been my teachers, and I think
Speaker:she alludes to that as well. And she talks about Joni and Wendi,
Speaker:her experience working there. And she says the embodied
Speaker:experiences of working with people and getting on the floor and being with
Speaker:them, you know, and teachers are just incredible
Speaker:humans, you know, and have such potential to impact,
Speaker:especially the ones who are doing it really well and actually incarnating
Speaker:and embodying. Like she talks about Joni and friends and getting down on the
Speaker:floor. And she also finishes with this
Speaker:reflecting on who loved you into being and what are some of the
Speaker:things that you wanna share with others, you know, and
Speaker:I just love that. Who loved you into being? That is
Speaker:a a profound question that stood out to me as well. Yeah.
Speaker:And and I I loved the humility that she had in that
Speaker:perspective of that colearning with her students.
Speaker:Yeah. She might be the teacher in the room, but she's colearning, and
Speaker:and she's able to adapt even how she takes them on
Speaker:this learning journey based on some of the feedback and and
Speaker:the humility it takes to not just be the person in charge,
Speaker:but she even said, I always say my greatest teachers
Speaker:and my professors have been the children that I've gotten to
Speaker:walk alongside and journey with. And I think that is a
Speaker:profound thing that imagine that in a Church setting as we're
Speaker:teaching, that we're colearning together. Yes. There
Speaker:might be some biblical truths and some some things that
Speaker:the Church will want to teach, but being
Speaker:adaptive to the environment and to who is there, not
Speaker:overloading that information, but learning
Speaker:from some of the greatest teachers in my life. I I reflected when
Speaker:she said that some of the greatest teachers and professors in my life have been
Speaker:the children that have joined our family and and some of
Speaker:the social workers that have allowed me to walk
Speaker:alongside their difficult journey and some of the families that we get to
Speaker:participate with in community through the care portal and some of the youth
Speaker:that are aging out. I think, you know what? There's such teaching
Speaker:moments that we don't have to come there knowing all the
Speaker:answers, but we can actually co learn and we can we can
Speaker:help, but we can also receive. I I I think that was a a very
Speaker:profound way of looking at teaching. There was one thing that
Speaker:stood out, interviewing all of the guests that we had
Speaker:in the last, episodes through this series, one
Speaker:of the things that I saw as a commonality even though these
Speaker:giftings are very different and unique was this element
Speaker:of listening, that the apostolic was
Speaker:listening to their community, was listening to God,
Speaker:and thinking of new ways because they were inspired by God. The the
Speaker:prophetic was listening to God and saying what it what
Speaker:they heard. The evangelist was listening to what
Speaker:God was doing in their life, and and she even talks
Speaker:about listening more than actually just speaking out the words and and
Speaker:understanding communication is understanding your audience by
Speaker:listening, she she highlighted. The shepherding was really
Speaker:listening to the sheep and and how how they can he can respond
Speaker:to them. Teaching was about listening to your students, and all
Speaker:of them are so much on listening and less on the authority.
Speaker:None of them came very authoritative saying, I have this gift and so,
Speaker:therefore, Church, listen up. Society, listen
Speaker:up. Just this attitude of
Speaker:listening. And so in all of these contexts, in all
Speaker:of these giftings that God has gifted the Church
Speaker:with, we can still sum it up with my sheep
Speaker:hear my voice. Right? There's this aspect of
Speaker:being good listeners, I thought was kind of profound in all of
Speaker:them. Oh, yeah. So key. And I mean, just so
Speaker:key to be a a great leader in this world today. It
Speaker:starts with listening. Mhmm. Which is it's just a
Speaker:great way to not feel all the pressure to have all the
Speaker:right answers and to nail it, with everything
Speaker:we are called to do. It's listening and
Speaker:responding, and I think that's that's a huge gift.
Speaker:So, Daria, as we wrap up this episode and the series,
Speaker:I guess the question I have for you and the work that you're doing is
Speaker:how do city networks and local Churches, how do
Speaker:they benefit from embracing the diversity of these giftings?
Speaker:What is some of your insights that you're seeing? Yeah. Something
Speaker:I've been seeing, and that actually has been really heavy on my heart lately, is
Speaker:a bit of this leadership crisis that we have across our country.
Speaker:Maybe around the world. I don't know. But I definitely see it in Canada and
Speaker:in Quebec. I really see it. And, I was reminded yesterday. I
Speaker:had a meeting with, Chuck Proudfoot from AtWork On Purpose, and he
Speaker:reminded me that 1% of Christians do this work, like,
Speaker:do Christian ministry, and 99% of
Speaker:Christians are not, you know, leaders in the Church, so to
Speaker:speak. But every Christian has one of these
Speaker:gifts. You know, everyone, you know, we we all have them. And so
Speaker:even as we experience this leadership crisis, how do we mobilize
Speaker:the whole Church, the whole all all a 100%,
Speaker:into their gifting and into their their calling, to live
Speaker:out who God created them to be in the body of Christ.
Speaker:Yeah. No. That that is profound. Are you seeing certain, giftings
Speaker:more prominent and more accessible within Churches and Church
Speaker:networks than others and and some that are needing more
Speaker:giftings to balance the ecosystems?
Speaker:Not necessarily. I don't see any any need more than another, but I
Speaker:think as people learn their gift and and are
Speaker:empowered in it, then I think that they will they will wanna use
Speaker:it and wanna feel like they're part of a community of people that are
Speaker:using their gifts. And it's not just one leader that leads and does
Speaker:everything, does all 5 of those things. But if we're all
Speaker:using what God has given us to lead together,
Speaker:then I think that really helps solve a bit for our
Speaker:leadership crisis. Yeah. And you say leadership crisis, and I
Speaker:think we could look at these giftings and those needing to flourish.
Speaker:And I think also some of the things that have united us in some of
Speaker:our conversations and experiences has also been the
Speaker:need for diversity around the table both in multiculturalism,
Speaker:but also having male and female women leaders as well. There's
Speaker:a a needed voice there at the table. Is there anything that
Speaker:else that you would say is needed for the
Speaker:flourishing of the Canadian Church, so to speak? Yeah. I
Speaker:mean, I would love to see more female leaders around
Speaker:the table and women being, you know, encouraged and
Speaker:raised up to feel like they can have a voice and they can lead.
Speaker:I mean, they feel like that in in the rest of the world. I think
Speaker:it's just the Church world that is still a bit of a struggle for women.
Speaker:So for women to have a voice and not at the
Speaker:expense of men and not to lessen the role of
Speaker:men. That's true. You know? I really deeply appreciate men and
Speaker:their leadership, but, you know, how can we work better together
Speaker:and and really work work at this together, male and
Speaker:female, as a holistic picture of the
Speaker:Church. Yeah. And I think it it requires a certain level of listening
Speaker:again to say maybe that tension isn't even felt around those tables
Speaker:or city network tables or those Church leadership tables because
Speaker:maybe it's the prominent voice. So if it's just males around the table,
Speaker:they won't necessarily realize that there there is a a deficit there,
Speaker:and so listening again to the broader Church
Speaker:will add value. God says he equips the
Speaker:Church to edify, to equip, and to build up, and so
Speaker:this is, again, not an authoritative struggle. It's more
Speaker:on building up and edifying the Church so that we can work better together.
Speaker:And I would also say the same could be said. We've talked
Speaker:about women and and men in ministry. We
Speaker:briefly touched on on the the cultural diversity, which I
Speaker:think is very important, and and, Vincent and
Speaker:I talked a little bit about that, but also denominationalism.
Speaker:What are you seeing within the networks about the unity of the
Speaker:Church? Are denominations coming together that are
Speaker:very diverse, or or do we have some more leadership work to do in that
Speaker:as well? Oh, well, that's a loaded question, Wendy.
Speaker:That's why I asked it. Yeah. There are definitely denominations
Speaker:very willing to work together, and there's definitely others
Speaker:not willing to work together. And so it's, it's it's
Speaker:tough. And I also understand in the city space and the city
Speaker:network space, there's denominations that are
Speaker:willing to feed the homeless together or do
Speaker:something more practical. But there's others, you know,
Speaker:that wouldn't be willing to pray with a a someone of a
Speaker:different denomination or plant a Church, do Church planting
Speaker:networks. You know, they're pretty specific about the people they they would network
Speaker:to plant Churches with. And so I get that sometimes, but
Speaker:there's, yeah, there's definitely some hard divides these days,
Speaker:and and it's tough to navigate. And, honestly, I
Speaker:see some of the city network leaders out there who are just
Speaker:exhausted because they're navigating it, and it's
Speaker:hard. And they just wanna stay in relationship and
Speaker:keep peace and love love their community,
Speaker:but it's it's tough. Yeah. And I I think that's true. It
Speaker:is tough. And but when we're saying the unity of the Church, we're not
Speaker:saying uniformity, but sometimes there's a lot of polarizing
Speaker:topics and secondary theologies that can divide. Just
Speaker:like any of these APES, they could say, oh, well, this is the way, but
Speaker:there there's a need for a lot of spiritual humility to
Speaker:be able to sit amongst our differences and listen to the other.
Speaker:Because when we listen to each other and we are focused
Speaker:on Christ, who is the unifier, not the
Speaker:uniformity, the conformist, that's
Speaker:when the beauty of the Church can be seen in the community. That's
Speaker:when communities can flourish because there is
Speaker:an an outpouring of the holy spirit out of that
Speaker:unity that they can the world can see that the the the
Speaker:Church is 1. Any last concluding thought before
Speaker:we conclude this episode? You know, I think my prayer for the
Speaker:last couple months, and it's just there's a song that
Speaker:call it's called make room. And I think what my prayer has been
Speaker:has just I have the sticky note on my wall here. I will make room
Speaker:for you to do whatever you want to. And I think that's
Speaker:sort of my my prayer for Canada too, but, like, God, what do we need
Speaker:to make room for you to do maybe different? And
Speaker:there's a there's actually a line in the song that says, shake up the
Speaker:ground of all my tradition. Break down the walls of all my
Speaker:religion. Your way is better. Oh, your way is
Speaker:better. And so, like, that I think that's just been my
Speaker:prayer lately for Canada. But, God, what what are you doing that's new?
Speaker:Because something new needs to happen. And, you know,
Speaker:almost over 80% of Canada is urban is people live
Speaker:in cities. And so if we are to get
Speaker:serious about our cities in Canada, what is that gonna look
Speaker:like? And, God, do something new and better.
Speaker:Yeah. Because your way is better. Yeah. And how how do we do that? How
Speaker:do I make room for God to do bigger and better
Speaker:things in my heart, in my city, in my country.
Speaker:Wow. That that is a great way to end this series actually
Speaker:to make room. And sometimes God speaks by making
Speaker:room for the for other people around your table that might be different than
Speaker:you, very different, purposely different than you,
Speaker:making room for God can and leaving space for society
Speaker:to speak to us. There's making room in so many
Speaker:ways that God wants to allow our cities
Speaker:to flourish. So thank you so much, Daria, for coming on to the podcast,
Speaker:and I'm looking forward to future conversations and and working closely with
Speaker:you. Mhmm. Well, thanks, Wendy. I've I really appreciated this,
Speaker:whole series, so keep on. Thank you for
Speaker:joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
Speaker:inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living
Speaker:life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative of
Speaker:CareImpact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and
Speaker:equipping the whole Church to journey well in community. You can
Speaker:visit their website at CareImpact or visit
Speaker:journeywithcare.ca to get more information on weekly episodes,
Speaker:Journey with Prayer, and details about our upcoming events and meetups.
Speaker:You can also leave us a message, share your thoughts, and connect with like
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Speaker:Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these stories reach the
Speaker:community. Together, we can explore ways to journey in a good way,
Speaker:And always remember to stay curious.
