Second Thoughts | ALBAS UP! - A New Posture for Advocacy

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Having relational integrity, and that takes work. That is the work,

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is building relationships. It's not the outcome necessarily.

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The relationship is the work. It's like going on a train trip.

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A train trip isn't about the destination. The train trip is

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the trip. It it is doing it together. It's seeing the sights. It's

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experiencing life together. That is the invitation.

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This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious

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Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life

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stories and honest conversations.

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Hey, Wendy. We are back back with another second thoughts episode.

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How are you doing this week? Doing well. It's chilly out here in the

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camper, but, I do see more sunshine these days, so that is good.

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So we're taking a step back to discuss our conversation,

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reflect on it, and share our thoughts about our discussion that we had with

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Marie Christian this last week. The episode, I think we labeled it

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the privilege of quiet advocacy that lets others be heard.

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What has been sitting with you, Wendy, since that since that conversation?

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Well, there that was a really deep good conversation. I really

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appreciate. I could really identify with asking myself the

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question, what is my role alongside others? And she made

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it sound so simple. Just simply ask, what is it

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that you need? And and simplifying it, taking the guesswork out

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of compassion is letting the other person voice

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what it is that they need. I really like that. And we did have Marie

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on for season two. It's been a couple years to

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the date almost, actually, where we had her on. We sat in her

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office, and she shared a lot of similar things, but really expanded

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on it on this one, I find. And it it almost feels more timely now

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that we're having this conversation now. Now we're in this series, the cost of

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indifference. Like, why are we having this conversation in this

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series? Yeah. That's a really good question. When we're looking

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at indifference, you you wouldn't necessarily pair that with advocacy

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because advocacy can be really good. It is really good. It

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is needed. But the cost of advocacy when

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we don't understand how to do it in a

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healthy relational way can sometimes be taking the

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voice from people. It's actually not listening to the people. It's

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trying to fix peep and and voice things that without listening.

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And so the role of advocacy as we learned

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last week with Marie Christian is we need

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to be able to sit, connect, and ask,

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what is it that you need? Where would you like to go with this? And

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it's nuance. Right, Johan? I loved how Marie said,

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well, if they really wanna paint all the lawns

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in our neighborhood purple, do we just go out and buy a can of paint?

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What was your thoughts on that? I was wondering if she's held on to that

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analogy because it seemed pretty brilliant at the time. Like, where did that

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come from? Because sometimes we we try to be over

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helping or overcompensating and say, yeah, like, let's do that. Let's run with

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it. Instead of asking the question about, well, why do you wanna do that?

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Like, what's what's behind that? What what's your thought process behind that?

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And I really like the way that she used that analogies. Yeah.

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Because advocacy isn't just like, oh, if if a person

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who is in need is voicing what they want is purple paint

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on all the lawns in the neighborhood, it doesn't mean we jump when they say

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jump, but it's actually an invitation, a bid to get

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closer. It's a bid to ask, so tell me more. Tell me

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more. What is behind all of those things? And maybe there's something

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that we can connect. I can't be all things to all people.

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And for some of us, that can be a hard thing to swallow. I want

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to do so much. I want to care for others,

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and so let me bend over backwards. But

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being honest with selves, and I I loved where she went with this finding your

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authenticity. Who are you, and what has god created you to

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be, and what role do you have in this? And it it requires some

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discernment and saying, okay. In that purple paint analogy

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and in that sense of beautification, maybe I have a

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green thumb in there somewhere. And maybe you and

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I can connect over a greenhouse and over

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purple flowers. I don't know. But that's where there is no

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formula. It's a matter of having that relational

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integrity to get closer, to leaning closer, not just

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say, I don't do purple paint. That's a stupid idea. It's an

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invitation to get closer in a relational kind of

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way. And Marie talked about advocacy being sometimes standing in

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front, beside, or behind. And I don't know,

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just thinking about this whole purple paint analogy, it makes me think about,

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parenting adults sometimes. You wanna stand in front, beside, and

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behind, like I was just thinking the other day, our son was telling us about

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this one time that he came home from work, and he wants to

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take a trip to BC to see his cousins. And, like, he bought the plane

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ticket and all this stuff afterwards. But he was excited about this

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idea. He comes in, and he's all excited about it. And

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and we kinda shut him down by asking those parenting questions. Well, how are you

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gonna afford it? You've never flown before. Like, where are you gonna be

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staying? And it just shut down that excitement. And afterwards, he came

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and talked to us and he said, I just wanted to I was excited about

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this thing and I just wanted to share it with you guys and you just

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shut it down. So Oh, damn. Sometimes advocacy

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is like, you try to do the parenting thing. Yeah. But advocacy

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is sometimes just sharing excitement and then processing it with them

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and asking those questions again. So what are you gonna do here?

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Not necessarily imposing your wisdom, your worldview

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on on them, But, yeah, going deeper. Right? And

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allowing them to make the mistakes and allowing them to learn and allowing them to

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grow because when you just parent, sometimes it squashes their

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growth even. Oh, I'm so with you, Johan. I can so

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relate. I'm I'm in the trenches right now raising teenagers and

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having young adults and letting them make

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choices, letting them discover things for

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themselves. And let's face it. I don't know all the answers. I

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but we do come with some lived experience, but limited I have

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limited experience from my worldview. And so I need to confront my

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biases. And when there is danger or when there is things that

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I'm like, I so want to prevent my older

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daughters, from harm. I have to say, I I

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do believe, integrally, it comes from a good place of wanting to

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protect that mama bear. It doesn't go away when they turn

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they have their eighteenth birthday cake. You wanna protect them,

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but part of learning

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to let go and be a champion

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of our kids is saying, okay. When is

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it that I can't protect them? I need to walk

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alongside. Ask those questions and let them make choices,

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good or harmful or things like that, and

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say, you know what? Maybe even when

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maybe my role is to stand behind and pray. Maybe

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it is to stand beside and ask questions that

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don't shut down conversations because I know I I'm there too, Johan. It's

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so easy for me to even in my questioning, I can stand in front

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in shooting things down and and poking holes through their their,

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brain development. But let let's put it into a context

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of churches having compassion within their community.

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Is it any different, do you think, with those that

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are struggling with homelessness or addictions

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or have different lifestyles than perhaps

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is on their own doctrinal statements, even other denominations

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down the street. How do we do relationships

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there? I think even bringing it back to

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what what we were just talking about. I think churches often do the same thing

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where the leaders at the top, they'll squash those

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ideas of those excited people in the congregation that wanna do this new

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initiative or they wanna get something going in the church even

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if it has to do with poverty. They ask questions, well, how much is it

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gonna cost? And where are you gonna do this? Who are you gonna bring on

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board? You haven't done this thing before or I've seen it done before and it

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didn't work. So sometimes the church

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takes that role where they're squashing ideas and

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not being advocates of their community doing things. And I'm not saying that's for

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all churches, and I'm not saying that's for every idea either. But

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we've we've seen examples of this time and time again. So

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how do we as leaders grapple with that tension

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of lifting up our people when they're excited about something and then maybe coming back

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to later and asking the questions or standing behind them or

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knowing when to step back and letting them take the lead. Well, and I think

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there's no simple answer to that. I think there's no simple

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one, two, three step. The key to all of this

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is that relational piece of going deeper,

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leaning into each other, learning to

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find some common denominators. And even in our

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differences and even in our best

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intentions, it's a matter of having relational

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integrity, and that takes work. That is the work is building

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relationships. It's not the outcome necessarily. The

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relationship is the work. It's like going on a train trip. A

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train trip isn't about the destination. The train trip is the

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trip. It it is doing it together. It's seeing the sights. It's experiencing

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life together. That is the invitation. And then we also have to look

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at within the church, we always have. We are at times

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that happy Helen or the the philanthropic Phil that wants

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to intervene on. I see that person in Tent City, and I'm

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gonna rescue them. I'm gonna build them the the house. I'm gonna feed

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them till they're fat. I I'm gonna do these things because not on

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my watch are they gonna go in the direction that they're going.

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But we might have good intentions. But have

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we stopped to have a thousand cups of coffee with them?

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Have we stopped to ask, Joe, what would you like and how

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are you doing? And and tell me about your day. Tell me about the good

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things that you're excited to wake up to. Are we gonna do the

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deep work of relational intervention?

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If there's anything our country needs, it's relational

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trust based relational intervention. We use that as a a care lingo

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not too long ago. Listen up if you don't know what TBRI is,

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but we need trust building

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relational intervention. Hey. Maybe that's a new one TBRI.

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We need to be building that. That is the work of advocacy.

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And we actually talked about churches asking their community what they need instead

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of assuming. So, again, that comes with relationships sitting at the

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table with a cup of coffee. And when you ask those questions, it

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often gets messy. And we talk about being okay with getting messy

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sometimes and getting real about the messiness. And you know that

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good intentions often collide with that real world messiness. And

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this is gonna be a future episode where we're talking about moving from programs to

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authentic relationships. What are some of those messiest but most beautiful

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partnerships that you've seen between churches and communities, Wendy?

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Well, call me weird, but I love the messy. I've learned

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to embrace it. I'm learning even in my own discomfort that that

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is the work, and I can't be more excited

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about why we're doing care portal. Now care portal

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is a care sharing technology that connects communities together

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to support individuals in the community, but it could be seen

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as just a a Kijiji, a a marketplace. Oh, they need a

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bed, so we're gonna, like, drop off deliver a bed. That's what we're

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trying to not do. Okay. What I'm excited about care

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portal is that we're we're training those that are

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already on the front lines, the agencies, the nonprofits,

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those that are doing some really good things, interventions,

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working with people in crisis. We're training them to

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ask the question, what is it that you need? How can we move things

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along, not just for you, but with you? And there's some discernment,

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some vetting that goes along. Right? Like, we're not delivering

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purple paint to every household. But what are the things that will move you forward?

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What is it that you would like in order to get your children home, and

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how can we work this through? Or what is it that you need as your

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agent got a foster care that would give you a sense of security,

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that would help you get that job, that would make you feel

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confident for that first interview? We're inviting

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social workers and and frontline workers to ask those questions

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to walk along beside. Not this isn't a frontline

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intervention. This is a beside intervention. And they're able

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to put those needs onto the portal. And churches that we're

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training also in advocacy, what does it look like to come along

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behind and beside in responding to their

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needs and being that a relational connection

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point? It's more about the relationship than what that

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bed means. Yes. That bed is important or that need

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is being met in a timely way, but let's connect

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neighbor to neighbor. Yeah. And you you talk about

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social workers. Historically, social services and the church

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have not worked well together. They don't get along. There's a mistrust

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there. Yeah. And yet social workers have their pulse on what the

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community actually needs. So if we're gonna ask the

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community, hey, what do you need? They're a good place to start.

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Yeah. And we need to build trust and

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relationships with social workers as well. They

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are humans. They've gone in there into this career

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with the intentions and the the desire

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to care for the most vulnerable. And I

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can tell you from talking with social workers as I've gotten to know

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them, they've opened up with me over so many

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cups of coffee. I think we must be past a thousand by now, with

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some people. The things that they are exposed to on a

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daily, and they cannot they cannot explain to

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others. They cannot respond to media. I'm

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not saying social service systemically is perfect,

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but there are people coming to the front lines. They know where the needs

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are. So when they are walking alongside others and they're

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identifying something with beside others and advocating

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for down care portal, What we're training churches to say is,

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like, to look at at those needs and say, don't try to

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discern if that is what you think that Johnny Boy needs.

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Trust and lean into that relationship with the social

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worker who is inviting you in, and it's a bid for trust.

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It's a bid for relationships with them and

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with their clients that they wanna trust you with. So

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we're working alongside churches predominantly to say,

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how do we do that well? And so this conversation is

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crucial, and I encourage everybody to go listen to Marie

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Christian's, episode if you haven't already because these are

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conversations we need to be having around our pews, around our kitchen

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tables, in how we journey with others because we can

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often get in the way. And we can come up with the most

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interesting scenarios where we think we're

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doing good. But I can tell you, I still have that

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vivid image of a

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vegetarian newcomer family getting six frozen turkeys

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at Christmas. We do that because we don't have relationships, and

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they become a project. And and we can do better, and I've seen better.

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Well, Wendy, do you have any examples of of seeing better?

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Yeah. We have thousands of examples literally.

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We just reached, over a thousand children served,

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by local churches through the care portal. I know. That's a

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big deal. And, actually, there's more. This is what we have documented. It's

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a very transparent, system of how care

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sharing happens in our country. But, there are so

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many stories and examples of families

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receiving care and them feeling seen and heard because they

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said, you know what? We've been sleeping on the floor, and we were at risk

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of losing our kids because we couldn't provide. You know what? I I

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lost a job. I I I couldn't do it. It we were just fell in

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hard times. And where the church showed up in those

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timely spaces, they didn't actually know what was needed. And we've taken

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that guesswork out with care portal, because the social worker has been

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able to advocate alongside them. And within hours,

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within twenty four hours, they were all in beds. And

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and so there's story after story. There there's youth that didn't

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think they could get that construction job after they've aged out.

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And within hours, within days, they were responded to

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by the church knocking on their door and saying, here we

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are. We we heard you needed this. And and it's just received

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with such warmth because we're not imposing steel boat toed

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boots on him, and I'll go get a job. Now, like, pull yourself up by

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the bootstraps. We're listening and saying, what is it that

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you need to succeed this month and to see his

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dreams come true and get to that next step? Because the

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church wasn't giving them a bouncy castle or a hot dog or

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come to our men's program. They were saying, here.

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Just simply, we're here for you, and we hear you.

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That is just like, you can get addicted to

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caring, just because you're seeing that

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relationship happen in real time a thousand

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times over. We wanna see a million times over across our nation.

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We can do better by simply listening. And now we

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even have technology to help us listen better because, let's face it, we don't

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even know what the needs are. We don't even have mechanisms

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to listen. We don't have relationships to listen. So we're

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taking that guesswork out of compassion simply by bringing some

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technology to help us do better. And we have a ton of stories from

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care portal. Like, that's you're just sharing a few examples. Yeah.

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But so we'd be missed to not talk about this subject

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that was predominant in our conversation with Marie is safe storytelling

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and ethics. We're asking for these stories. In fact, the first

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episode that we did with her two years ago is is called telling stories safely

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or Mhmm. Along those lines of sharing stories safely.

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Here's a quote Marie said. We wanna make an impact. We wanna touch

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people's hearts, and we wanna see change happen, but not at the

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cost of your own mental health, emotional health.

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So my question is, how could we tell those hard stories

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that invite compassion without turning people's pain into content? I

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mean, this is something I wrestle with as a podcast producer.

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We're working on a kind of a true crime

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type podcast coming up where Yeah. It really is telling a

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story about someone's pain. And we don't wanna just find

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those hard stories to turn them into content for the sake of of

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doing something edgy or or for the sake of telling a story

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that are gonna intrigue an audience. We wanna tell stories that are gonna cause transformation,

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and we don't wanna hurt the storyteller at the same time. Yeah. So

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how do we tell those hard stories without turning people's pain into content?

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You know that feeling? Yeah. You you've touched on a really

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important topic there, Johan. Juice sells.

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Blood sells. Like, people want the juicy stories.

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And we have to be careful when we're even inviting

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people, when we're even asking questions with people going through

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hardship. You need to earn trust to be

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shared that those deeper stories and those deeper

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realities, and and it can be exploitative. And as

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mama bear to my my children, I

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know people want they mean well, and they often want the juice of,

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like, what's going on in your family? And tell me their

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stories. And I'm like, that's really my children's

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stories to share. I just get to journey with them,

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and it's not something I have privilege to disclose.

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And yet, people going through hardship do need

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people they can trust and confide in, that they can actually share their

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story. So part of, like, going back to care portal, part of the the big

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things that we work on with social services and caseworkers that

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are in those stories. They're they're living those out alongside these

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people. They're seeing what is needed, and they're

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needing some extra community supports. One of the big

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things that we really land on is how to share

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stories safely, not giving out too much information, but

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humanizing the individual. How do we bring

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the human side of it? When we're sharing other people's stories, how

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would they feel if you were saying this in front of

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them? Would it be honoring? Would it be looking at the good, not just the

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tragedy or that they're a pity case if we're talking about

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somebody? And then when we're inviting other people to

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maybe speak in our church, maybe there's somebody that have come into your

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church that are sharing their testimony. How do we invite

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storytelling in an ethical way? And you'll have to go back to

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the the link in the show notes on, Marie's first episode

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with us on that. But how do we invite people without

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extracting too much where they're left vulnerable, they're left

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open gaping wounds because we've invited them to speak it, and yet we

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don't provide adequate support, relational support,

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trauma care. Trauma care is crucial to creating

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that felt safety. How do we do that? We have to check our

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motives. When we're asking people to share about themselves,

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is it because we want to know, or is it because

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we're leaning in inviting them into a safe place?

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And we have to go at the pace of relationships, not

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in in our unsatiated desire to know what the the scoop is on their

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life. And like I mentioned, this other podcast we're working on,

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that was one of the things that I wanna make sure right off the hop.

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Like, I didn't really know this person very well. So we started our

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conversation by saying, hey, what are some of the talking points that you don't want

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us to touch on? Mhmm. What are some of those off limits

Speaker: 00:22:59

areas? And they were honest right away. And I think we're

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gonna get better stories and more authentic stories when

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we create that felt safety, which was our CareLingo word last last week.

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Mhmm. When we create that felt safety for them to be able to share their

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stories in a safe place. Before we end this conversation,

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Marie mentioned this a few times, so it felt really important. She had these

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four words that she was using to describe as a framework for

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advocacy and good listening. Can you remember those four things, and do you

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have anything that you want to riff on for those?

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Yeah. The it's just a really simple way that we can

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all take to heart. We can all memorize these things. It's four

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words. It's ask, listen, believe, and act.

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And so, I would encourage you right now,

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write it down, like, jog it into your memory

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right now. Ask. So we've talked about it already. We

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can ask questions and not just in an inquisitive kind

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of nosy kind of way, but asking questions that

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say, I'm here for you. I'm interested in your day, not just about what I

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wanna get out of this conversation or or out of your story

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and, not assuming what people need. Just

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ask people what what is it that you would like, in this

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situation to happen? And then to listen and

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truly listen, unbiased listen. We we need to check

Speaker: 00:24:25

our biases and and listen just for the sake of connecting

Speaker: 00:24:29

and hearing what is behind what they're saying. What

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is it that they're actually saying that I'm not paying attention to that I need

Speaker: 00:24:37

to listen? And then there is believe. We need to believe in what

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people are saying, believe in them, believe that they have

Speaker: 00:24:45

the Imago Dei in them, and that what they are

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experiencing is their reality and is something that

Speaker: 00:24:52

we need to understand in order to appropriately

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respond. So we need to believe what they're saying. A child, an

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elderly, an intoxicated person, believe

Speaker: 00:25:03

where they're at. And then we need to act. We need to do

Speaker: 00:25:07

something. And that we could do many things, but let's not start

Speaker: 00:25:11

with act. Often, we wanna start with act. Just tell me what to do, and

Speaker: 00:25:14

I'll do it. No. We need to ask, listen, believe, and then act.

Speaker: 00:25:18

That's just a response. How does God want you to respond?

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What is God inviting you into their story for? And who are

Speaker: 00:25:25

you? And then how is God asking you to respond? Here we

Speaker: 00:25:29

go. ALBA. That's that's your acronym. Oh, ALBA. Yes.

Speaker: 00:25:33

Alba's up. Alba's up. Okay,

Speaker: 00:25:37

guys. This is a new riff on, Canadian politics here.

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Instead of elbows up and antagonism, let's go elbows up. I think

Speaker: 00:25:44

we could actually run with this. Okay.

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Now it's time for Care lingo.

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Our word today is withness, and we

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got a few people commenting on the Care Impact

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podcast group. Again, if you wanna comment on any

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CareLingo segments that we post there or just get in on the conversation,

Speaker: 00:26:08

join a group of awesome people because, well, Wendy

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and I are there. So Come

Speaker: 00:26:15

join us. Come join us. It's fun. We wanna grow the group. It'll

Speaker: 00:26:19

be fun. Lots of good stuff on there. Withness. Again,

Speaker: 00:26:22

so Ashley commented when you need someone to back you up in

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court, but you have somewhat of a speech impediment, kinda like

Speaker: 00:26:30

me. And you say, can I get

Speaker: 00:26:33

a? Can I get a? I mean, I'm not making fun of

Speaker: 00:26:37

people with a list because I have a little bit of one. So in fact,

Speaker: 00:26:40

I had a speech impediment when I was very young. Realize that of you,

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Johan. So so this is your word then? Would you own this? I

Speaker: 00:26:47

could yeah. Yeah. I would own this. In fact, when I was young, I couldn't

Speaker: 00:26:51

pronounce consonants. It was all vowels. Oh, wow. Well, here you are being

Speaker: 00:26:55

a podcast cohost. So And then there's Kathy who

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commented, it's someone who is really with it. They have withness about

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them. Kathy, you are with it. Yeah. She's got

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some withness. Now my definition I was kinda running

Speaker: 00:27:09

with Ashley's before I heard all this, but then I had another one. I'm like,

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you know what? Those cryptids, we got

Speaker: 00:27:16

Loch Ness. You know, when you wanna take a selfie with Loch Ness, you got

Speaker: 00:27:20

the lake behind you, and you see Loch Ness in the background. Let's go. I

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know. Let's go. I know. You take this selfie, you're with Ness. Oh, yeah.

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He's like, yeah. I'm with Ness right now. Anyway, that's what it could

Speaker: 00:27:30

mean. But what does it actually mean, Wendy? Unless you have

Speaker: 00:27:34

a offbeat definition. I don't think I could beat those ones. Ashley,

Speaker: 00:27:38

Kathy, Johan, like, you you guys got me beat, but, for

Speaker: 00:27:41

many people, withness might sound like a

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a spelling error or something speech impediment, but it it

Speaker: 00:27:49

actually is kind of a coined language maybe more recently that

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we have also included in some of our language.

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And when you hear us say witness, it really means being radically

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present with others and and being sort of that

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advocate but with. Instead of just witnessing and

Speaker: 00:28:08

seeing, observing what's happening out there, There's a radical

Speaker: 00:28:12

presence about, witnessing what is here,

Speaker: 00:28:15

what we are gonna be with. So witness is mean fully

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engaged with someone or a community in the

Speaker: 00:28:22

moment, offering your attention and your support and

Speaker: 00:28:26

understanding without judgment, and it's about being there

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for them. Truly listening and connecting and validating other

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people's experiences. And, Johan, if there's

Speaker: 00:28:37

a word that is more appropriate to our timing in society

Speaker: 00:28:41

in North America, we need a lot more

Speaker: 00:28:44

withness from the church, from society to

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be with each other. That, again, that relational building

Speaker: 00:28:52

intervention that we need to have more witness. And

Speaker: 00:28:56

so I encourage you, try putting it into your day, try practicing it

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in your day as you see the news, as you're walking down the street,

Speaker: 00:29:04

as you're in work, being with your family, witness.

Speaker: 00:29:08

And I dare you to try to say witness now without saying it with a

Speaker: 00:29:11

lisp because I can't do it right now. Let's make,

Speaker: 00:29:15

lisping cool again. Alright. So listeners, if you

Speaker: 00:29:18

resonated with this conversation and Marie's conversation, hey, send it

Speaker: 00:29:22

to a friend, send it to someone that you think would benefit from this conversation.

Speaker: 00:29:26

Sharing word-of-mouth is the way that we can get more people on board

Speaker: 00:29:30

with these conversations and take it deeper. Like, let's have conversations

Speaker: 00:29:34

around that dinner table with family and friends. And remember to

Speaker: 00:29:37

join the Facebook group, Care Impact Podcast Group.

Speaker: 00:29:41

And as always, or for the first time, remember

Speaker: 00:29:44

to keep Alba's up.

Speaker: 00:29:49

And stay curious.

Speaker: 00:29:53

Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on

Speaker: 00:29:56

weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with

Speaker: 00:30:00

our community, visit journeywithcare. Ca, or find Care

Speaker: 00:30:03

Impact on Facebook and Instagram. Or just check the show notes for

Speaker: 00:30:07

these links and all the links related to this episode. Share your

Speaker: 00:30:11

thoughts, leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals

Speaker: 00:30:14

journeying in faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can

Speaker: 00:30:18

make a meaningful impact.