Leading Differently Together | APEST Series Introduction With Zach Manntai
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Description
Join host Wendi Park in the inaugural episode of "Leading Differently Together," a captivating series inspired by Ephesians 4:11-12. In this enlightening conversation, special guest Zach Manntai, hailing from Calgary, Alberta, delves into the profound impact of apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, shepherding, and teaching qualities within Canadian communities.
Zach's unconventional leadership approach challenges conventional church norms, igniting a thought-provoking dialogue on the significance of embracing diverse leadership styles and spiritual gifts for cultivating a more vibrant and inclusive church community. This episode lays the groundwork for an exciting journey of exploration into APEST gifts in the coming episodes. Discover new perspectives on leadership and spirituality!
Time Stamps
(00:00) Disruptive, questioner, seeks god's intent, challenging norms.
(08:17) Embodying beliefs, led by the Holy Spirit.
(11:26) Tension between office and priesthood in church.
(15:23) Nonprofit scarcity mindset, disruptive leadership types needed.
(18:41) Balanced relationships with God and community need.
(22:03) Challenging church norms, seeking reconciliation and reform.
(27:15) Prophets speak truth and point people to God.
(34:22) Different approaches to evangelism, passion for sharing.
(38:24) Genuine evangelism is rooted in love.
(42:12) Empowering women with pastoral and shepherding hearts.
(45:27) A teacher conveys information effectively, embodying expectations.
(47:59) Teachers role in church: understanding, explaining scripture.
(50:50) Ephesians 4: Gifts work together for healthy church
Guest Links
Other Links
Wendi's recommended resource:
Q5 by Alan Hirsch: https://fivefoldministry.com/
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Email: podcast@careimpact.ca
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Editing and production by Johan Heinrichs: arkpodcasts.ca
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
Speaker:is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired
Speaker:to love others well through real life stories and honest
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:Hey, curious Toejourners. We're kicking off a new series today,
Speaker:Leading Differently Together. I'm so glad you're coming on this journey
Speaker:as we meet up with some fascinating Canadians who embody our new
Speaker:series Leading Differently Together. Ephesians 411
Speaker:and 12 says he gave some to be apostles, prophets,
Speaker:evangelists, shepherds, and teachers To equip the saints for the
Speaker:work of the ministry for building up the body of Christ. So what does
Speaker:this look like for Canada? You'll have to listen to find out because we're gonna
Speaker:gain new imagination and appreciation for the ways our
Speaker:featured guests are boldly impacting their communities across
Speaker:Canada living out these exact qualities that Ephesians
Speaker:4:11:12 talk about, the apostles, prophets, evangelists,
Speaker:shepherds, and teachers. We often refer to it in our series as APES,
Speaker:the the acronym of all those 5. I'm your host, Wendy Park.
Speaker:And in studio today, we have a special guest from Calgary, Alberta, Zach
Speaker:Manntai. To kick us off in the series, Zach, welcome to the
Speaker:podcast. Thanks so much, Wendy. Love to be with
Speaker:you. And how are things in Calgary today? You know
Speaker:what? We're a blustery blooming 10
Speaker:degrees Celsius. It is a beautiful day. And you know what?
Speaker:I think that there's some amazing conversations happening across
Speaker:the country. And here in Western Canada, there's Just some amazing stuff that
Speaker:god is revealing and opening up people's eyes to, and I'm grateful to be a
Speaker:part of the conversation today. Well, I'm so glad to have you. I know
Speaker:we were introduced, not too long ago within this last year.
Speaker:And when I looked up your profile On LinkedIn, and
Speaker:we we did have that conversation. What grabbed my attention right away
Speaker:was your description of disruptor You're extraordinaire, and that
Speaker:resonated with me. And I'm like, yeah. This guy, I do
Speaker:want to meet. You are doing some extraordinary things in in Calgary,
Speaker:Specifically for the city and whatnot, can you tell us a little bit more
Speaker:about what gets you up in the morning? You betcha.
Speaker:Disruptor extraordinaire, Canoe Tipper. Often when you're with
Speaker:me, things don't stay, simple. And I
Speaker:think that When I look at the world around me and the way that god
Speaker:has wired me, a lot of the conversations
Speaker:are about saying You've heard it said. And I think that when
Speaker:Jesus did that throughout the gospels, there was a lot of
Speaker:trying to really Bring back what god's intent was.
Speaker:And there's been this amazing opportunity in my life, in my vocation, and in my
Speaker:personal life to be able to ask the questions.
Speaker:Well, that might be the way it is, but is that the way it's supposed
Speaker:to be? Is that the way it should be? Is that the way that brings
Speaker:blessing and hope into the people's lives around Me and
Speaker:sometimes the answer is no. And are we willing to
Speaker:wrestle with that and understand it? One of the things that kind of always
Speaker:makes me chuckle when I think about The early church fathers,
Speaker:they didn't have this long list of things. They only had the old
Speaker:testament. They had the Torah to Kind of reflect on. And so today,
Speaker:we have, like, literally 2000 years of additional
Speaker:conversations and additional things. And when we acknowledge the fact
Speaker:that people have been wrestling with the truths of God as as they've
Speaker:revealed through scripture and through creation over the years
Speaker:that sometimes we need to sit back and wrestle with it a little bit more.
Speaker:And whether you like me or not is sometimes dependent on whether or
Speaker:not you like to wrestle with me. Sometimes, like, with Jacob being God,
Speaker:you don't walk the same afterwards. But, you know, hopefully,
Speaker:we're all better for it. Well, Zach, I think we're a dangerous combination to
Speaker:kick off this series because there's a lot we could dive into that Ephesians
Speaker:4. You have background in in church ministry,
Speaker:a lot of background in that. You have been a pastor prior
Speaker:to the work you're doing now. Can you tell us a little bit about
Speaker:your journey into faith and where it's led you
Speaker:today? Yeah. One of the struggles when I think about,
Speaker:you know, let's get, somebody's testimony is that it it
Speaker:feels like you're looking for a a single point in time where
Speaker:God did something and life was always perfect after that.
Speaker:And, I accept the mess, I think, in my own
Speaker:life. I come from a a broken home. I come from a a
Speaker:family that both tried and
Speaker:failed often at being What god intended.
Speaker:My mother has dealt with many different things
Speaker:over the years. I'm adopted into a a new family. And When
Speaker:I was grafted into a, Pentecostal charismatic church
Speaker:at an early age, I had already felt the sense of
Speaker:god's hand on my life. There is this understanding of
Speaker:my father, both earthly, my adopted and biological were
Speaker:not necessarily Perfect. But there was this intimate
Speaker:relationship with the creator, with the heavenly father that I think
Speaker:really formed a lot of the ways that I now view the world.
Speaker:But a lot of that sense of god, where are you moving and how do
Speaker:I follow in your footsteps? When Jesus
Speaker:says, Why were you worried? I was just about my father's business. That's been a
Speaker:bit of the foundation for a bit of my life where sometimes I
Speaker:like the disruptor extraordinaire, I'm found to be outside
Speaker:of the box thinking Wendi really all I feel like I'm doing is is doing
Speaker:my father's business. And so, I was raised up in Edmonton,
Speaker:in a in a Pentecostal church that that really tried to
Speaker:anchor itself in good strong teaching, in good
Speaker:strong worship. Music and the word were anchors
Speaker:in our life, but There always felt like there is this sense of
Speaker:and then what. And I think that while I was raised,
Speaker:the the language in the in the early nineties was a fivefold ministry.
Speaker:That mindset of taking all 5 of these gifts into practice,
Speaker:often it didn't fully see itself realized in
Speaker:the, priesthood and kingship of all believers.
Speaker:It was more akin to there were some that were given these
Speaker:gifts. There were some that were elevated to the office of apostle
Speaker:or prophet, And they were put on a pedestal. We would do these
Speaker:things called presbytery where, I know that
Speaker:terminology is used differently in in different denominations. But in the Pentecostal
Speaker:tradition I was raised in, it was akin to, a prophetic ministry coming
Speaker:into town, and you sitting under these prophets that were seen as God's
Speaker:anointed man APEST like in the Old Testament rather
Speaker:than what I would say some of the more nuanced
Speaker:expression that you and I will talk about a bit Today is that sense of,
Speaker:like, we were called in a leadership capacity, I believe,
Speaker:you and I today and and others in ministry and not,
Speaker:To encourage and empower all members of
Speaker:the church to understand their giftings in these ways. And so
Speaker:that wrestling I had Really pushed me into
Speaker:both a practical ministry where I was serving in
Speaker:social services, in emergency medicine, in different
Speaker:spaces is where I was hands and feet of Jesus, but also
Speaker:always trying to hold my faith and works
Speaker:intention And saying, god, you are moving in the way I
Speaker:am serving in your church with the people in my community as
Speaker:well as in the way that my vocation and the way that my Paycheck and
Speaker:my mortgage is paid. So would you say you sort of
Speaker:naturally fell into or fit into
Speaker:some of these wirings of leadership styles, that apostolic,
Speaker:possibly prophetic. We can go into that. Or did you try
Speaker:Other forms that just didn't fit and it rubbed you the wrong way. How did
Speaker:you come to really live in this outside the box thinking and
Speaker:embrace it? Because it let's face it often in the church that
Speaker:is a bit threatening, speaking as one like you,
Speaker:that it it might not fit within the teaching, shepherding
Speaker:kind of context of a comfortable
Speaker:congregation. Very good point. I would
Speaker:say I have always attempted to,
Speaker:by wearing my heart on my sleeve, Say,
Speaker:like, I am fully embedded into my beliefs. And
Speaker:so I never would have used the language of apostle or prophet
Speaker:or evangelist in who in identifying who I am because I would
Speaker:see more the outputs. And in the
Speaker:charismatic sense, it's like, Where is holy spirit leading? Where am I
Speaker:flowing into? But it was more a matter of
Speaker:saying I am, some would say, naturally
Speaker:More a helper. But when I would do things like in,
Speaker:you know, when you do those personality tests or you're doing vocational assessments
Speaker:before you're Going off into colleges, it's like, who am
Speaker:I? And it would almost always come to, like, this sense of helper, but more
Speaker:than just helper. There was a, Myers Briggs that I
Speaker:did probably 20 years ago, and the name still the the title
Speaker:for my personality type, I say, with scare quotes, was a
Speaker:teacher idealist because I would see myself both as someone who
Speaker:saw what was possible, the potential, And
Speaker:seek to be there, but also to raise up and walk
Speaker:alongside those to help create that potential. And
Speaker:so about 5 years ago, I did Alan Hirsch's
Speaker:five q assessment. And I think when you and I were talking
Speaker:about where we scored on that, I am high
Speaker:apostolic prophetic scoring based on my responses, and
Speaker:it fits when you start thinking about it through the lens of APEST.
Speaker:But at the time, it was, it was a natural
Speaker:expression of my identity, of who I saw god making me
Speaker:and giving me those skills, Those affinities. And I think it
Speaker:was a very interesting way to then say, like, vocationally and
Speaker:spiritually, it's easier to just say you're this
Speaker:job. This is you're an evangelist or you're a bricklayer
Speaker:and just leave it at that. And I think one of the things that
Speaker:I know you and I Probably would say is that
Speaker:in that sense of focusing as the church
Speaker:often has done over the last 2 centuries, Focusing
Speaker:on shepherd and teacher as really the office of APEST,
Speaker:where someone's job in a
Speaker:Role is to either be educated as a theologian
Speaker:or to take care of a congregation.
Speaker:Left much of these other gifts as
Speaker:outside of the box. And coming back to that disruptor
Speaker:extraordinaire, Not something that people wanted because you had a system
Speaker:that worked. You had a system that was predictable. You had a system that allowed
Speaker:for those things. And when I would sit with church leadership
Speaker:and say things like, we believe these things
Speaker:aspirationally in scripture, we we feel called to live in this
Speaker:way and yet we don't, let us
Speaker:encourage and equip and release, well, then
Speaker:We don't have control over those people. We lose our
Speaker:volunteers. We lose our our, tithe base sometimes.
Speaker:Right. And we we have this tension too of the office
Speaker:of pastor and the institutional church, which It's just a
Speaker:an organizational way of bringing the church together. That in itself
Speaker:isn't bad at all, but we also have to look at the tension with
Speaker:the Priesthood of all believers. And when we talk about the apostolic
Speaker:gift, we're not necessarily talking capital a, coming
Speaker:apostle, Coming through town and doing some
Speaker:signs and wonders and great things, there may be some APEST
Speaker:specific lens of how we look at, And and we are all kind
Speaker:of part of the body of Christ. And going back to Ephesians
Speaker:411 and 12, why do we have these 5 things, the
Speaker:apostles, prophets, Evangelist, shepherds, and teachers thinking priesthood
Speaker:of all believers, it's to equip the
Speaker:saints for the work of the ministry. It's not to sit on our pedestals
Speaker:and say I am this, and I'm gonna sit in this office. And it also
Speaker:says for building up the body of Christ. And One of the
Speaker:things that I'm excited about this series is that we're gonna dive into
Speaker:those 5 different titles that Ephesians 4 refers
Speaker:to and hear people's stories Zach they've lived
Speaker:in these giftings and what it looks like and what
Speaker:maybe in immaturity it might look like as we need to mature as
Speaker:believers, but have A place in the church to
Speaker:exercise these needed gifts because one of the things that you and I have
Speaker:talked about in the past is that we need all 5. Absolutely. To be a
Speaker:healthy church, to see any good revivals happen,
Speaker:to see any movements happen, there's always elements of all 5
Speaker:things. And so I know this is gonna touch on some of our audience's heart.
Speaker:They want a healthy church. We want healthy communities where the church is attuned and
Speaker:vibrant and And alive and well and impacting their
Speaker:cities, but then we're gonna have to pay attention to where do we fit in,
Speaker:what is god creating me to do And, b, more than anything,
Speaker:and how does that affect how do I live out my theology and my
Speaker:understanding of who god has created? So really looking at that
Speaker:Leadership diversity around the table that there's a place for
Speaker:everyone, not just the the typical one that we often
Speaker:hire, that we vote in to leadership. But what does it
Speaker:look like for you and for I and that other person listening in
Speaker:thinking, k. Where do I fit in? Do I fit in? And how can I
Speaker:best serve, equip others, and build up the
Speaker:body of Christ for the service of others? Any thoughts on that?
Speaker:Well and I think that this is this is what it's been really difficult for
Speaker:someone like myself. So some Some of your listeners might
Speaker:be familiar with the the language of bivocational or co vocational
Speaker:pastoral ministry. I have sat in Church planting
Speaker:roles. I've sat in formal pastoral roles in in congregations.
Speaker:And more recently, I've spent a lot of my time more in
Speaker:the, quote, unquote marketplace where I work
Speaker:and and employ myself to do a job, where at the
Speaker:same time, I'm Serving in a local congregation,
Speaker:helping build up a small community of of believers to try and walk
Speaker:this out. Because of that, It is easy for me
Speaker:to throw shade against someone whose job is to
Speaker:be a traditional pastor within an evangelical church in
Speaker:North America, Where your job is to functionally
Speaker:act as both CEO for a congregation, for a business,
Speaker:and prepare things like sermons and manage staff, and
Speaker:that's your job as a pastor. And yet I
Speaker:acknowledge that the tension then that sits in is
Speaker:Any of the conversation about trying to create a leadership
Speaker:diversity that has more apostolic when we talk about
Speaker:apostolic, we're talking about lifting up, Envisioning
Speaker:pioneering ideas. Well, that challenges,
Speaker:perhaps, maybe the budgetary requirements of the church pastor.
Speaker:Maybe it requires more volunteer hours or or things that
Speaker:are not easy to manage when you're stuck
Speaker:in a nonprofit Scarcity mindset. And
Speaker:so whether you're trying to simply keep the ship that you
Speaker:have as a pastor in a local church Afloat, whether
Speaker:you're trying to keep your healthy people in that
Speaker:shepherding mindsets present, The tension is any
Speaker:of these more, I think you use the term disruptive
Speaker:often, leadership types Will make it
Speaker:actually difficult for the existing
Speaker:status quo. And so what has been very interesting, I think, when I
Speaker:look at A lot of what we call disciple making movements or
Speaker:DMMs around the world, much of their
Speaker:focus is around these disruptive, leadership types, the
Speaker:apostolic, prophetic, and evangelistic personalities,
Speaker:because the skill sets within those individuals are the ones that
Speaker:create Shifts. When we're talking about the the house churches in
Speaker:China, when we're talking about some of these beautiful expressions of faith
Speaker:in Africa, When we're talking about missionaries living in Muslim majority
Speaker:countries, you won't survive as a shepherd
Speaker:teacher in those environments. You won't. And so when
Speaker:we look at the Western church in Canada and in in Europe,
Speaker:there is a a question around, How do we
Speaker:bring in a a different style of leadership,
Speaker:both bringing a pest in, in a more holistic
Speaker:approach to How we hire, what skills we need at the table, but
Speaker:also perhaps away from a single
Speaker:pope within a church, A single bishop, a single pastor
Speaker:who has the full authority of of god
Speaker:in that space. And there are many denominations that work
Speaker:very hard to remove that. There are some denominations that have
Speaker:gone so far as to make the pastor almost more of a
Speaker:employee of a board that tries to manage it, to try and make sure that
Speaker:they don't have a single, I guess point of
Speaker:failure, but also a single responsibility. Like, I I've been an
Speaker:executive director, and I can tell you, It is not easy to try
Speaker:and manage an organization. And if I was also thinking
Speaker:about their spiritual health and And all of the performances
Speaker:that go into a Sunday gathering, my goodness. Like, that that is a
Speaker:lot of weight to place on somebody, and that is what many of the pastors
Speaker:across North America are doing. They're effectively an
Speaker:executive director of a nonprofit and the performance
Speaker:manager for a small play and performance theater
Speaker:Every Sunday. And so when we're expecting that of
Speaker:them, I don't want them to feel like they are
Speaker:Failing, but I think our expectations are wrong.
Speaker:Unrealistic. Right? And we're gonna go through what those five
Speaker:types of leadership are in a little bit of detail. We're gonna,
Speaker:obviously, in the the subsequent series, interview different people with those
Speaker:giftings and get their insight. Lovely. But What I hear you saying and
Speaker:what I I've been doing some research myself and experienced in in church
Speaker:settings, not only do we want balance, but to have a Healthy
Speaker:ecosystem within a church and a community and expression,
Speaker:all of it is relational. Absolutely. Any one of those that foregoes the
Speaker:relationship Of each other and with God and with
Speaker:community, there's always unhealth in that area,
Speaker:and and there's a need to be relationally integral. And it
Speaker:is hard. Apes, like, I like to refer them, the the apostles,
Speaker:prophets, and and evangelists. Yes. They're naturally
Speaker:the disruptive APES, but When in relationship with
Speaker:others that are comforting the shepherds and the teachers, it actually creates a
Speaker:really balanced ecosystem where there's times for
Speaker:comfort, but there's also times to be pushed beyond our our own
Speaker:comfort towards what could be and towards what god is calling
Speaker:us to do, and so I think that's beautiful. So let's just
Speaker:go briefly through each one of them. We won't have a lot of
Speaker:time today, but let's go through each. For the apostle, how can
Speaker:we describe apostleship in a contemporary way? What
Speaker:would you say that looks like In the marketplace, in the pew,
Speaker:on the pulpit, what does a apostleship look like?
Speaker:Well, like you said, sometimes when we think about these terms, We go
Speaker:straight to a title. So the title of apostle
Speaker:versus the role and the function or the gift of an
Speaker:apostolic mindset and approach. And so sometimes we
Speaker:think about people within scripture like Paul, where it's like the apostle
Speaker:Paul did these things. But When we talk about it in a more
Speaker:contemporary perspective, sometimes we're talking about a more entrepreneurial
Speaker:perspective. But also somebody who is, I I often
Speaker:find apostolic in a coaching mindset because
Speaker:they're trying to catalyze change,
Speaker:Which is almost always what apostolic ministry comes around,
Speaker:and then lift up and bring alongside those
Speaker:that are going to create that change with them. They don't need to
Speaker:own it. They can be a vision caster. They can
Speaker:try and create systemic change by bringing
Speaker:the right people to the table. And like Paul,
Speaker:I think over 3 years, he planted 7 churches. You don't
Speaker:do that as a single individual. You do
Speaker:that as a team. And, sure, when you think about him going through
Speaker:Asia Minor and and launching these things, he is lifting
Speaker:up. He is empowering. He is creating
Speaker:new furrowed ground so that others can come alongside
Speaker:him and do the other pieces. And so I often think of the apostle
Speaker:as someone who is is willing to be the tip of the spear,
Speaker:who is willing to take sometimes the brunt of the things because it
Speaker:It is it is something they see and believe in and they wanna
Speaker:create. And I think that one of the beautiful pieces of that apostolic
Speaker:ministry is one that A true apostolic ministry
Speaker:requires a sense of community. Much of
Speaker:these, like like you said, are healthier when they're in community,
Speaker:But some of them can be done more so than others
Speaker:as individual. I have the ability in this role to
Speaker:do more of this. And so When you have an apostolic individual
Speaker:within organization that is like a nonprofit, often they're
Speaker:gonna be okay with things like Skunk Works, where you're developing new
Speaker:ways of creating the change that you're trying to
Speaker:to craft. You're okay with the uncertainty because
Speaker:What you see drives you forward. Mhmm. Well,
Speaker:Care Impact is a case in point. I lead with apostolic
Speaker:vision. What you're saying is, like, uh-huh, uh-huh, And always feeling a sense
Speaker:of maybe being a little too much for the church because my mind drove
Speaker:me outside the walls and, like, what could be done? Systemic injustice,
Speaker:Systemic racism, denominational rivalry, and
Speaker:and things like that that I'm apostolic minds can tend to
Speaker:Notice those things and say, what could we do differently?
Speaker:Always pointing back if we're healthy, always pointing back to the cross and
Speaker:to To what we are called as followers of Jesus,
Speaker:but thinking, our child welfare system, our social
Speaker:construct, What would it look like if the church were equipped and
Speaker:connected in this area Yep. To do things differently? What would it look
Speaker:like What if Yep. We could do
Speaker:reconciliation in a way that was equitable, that was
Speaker:just honoring To our indigenous brothers and sisters and
Speaker:to the lord Absolutely. What could that look like? And so, yeah, we
Speaker:we try new things, and we're okay k to be that awkward presence in the
Speaker:room, and so I think that will resonate with a lot of people. And and
Speaker:one of the fears that I have is that some people will feel that
Speaker:urgency, But be conditioned to not say too much because
Speaker:that's not being Christian or not being nice to rock the boat and saying what
Speaker:if. We need the what ifs, Obviously, to grow in maturity.
Speaker:Because if we're not growing in maturity, but we've gotta start somewhere.
Speaker:Right? Let that be nurtured and discipled within the church. We gotta
Speaker:find people that can can nurture. I I found those people that
Speaker:supported me growing up into this what if
Speaker:feeling I've always seen something out there. But without that, we
Speaker:can be bulldozers. Without that, we can just be impatient
Speaker:entrepreneurs and say, Who needs a church? They're too slow to
Speaker:just do this and that on our own. No. We do need the the the
Speaker:body of Christ. And so it's just that call into relationship
Speaker:with others Who might rub you the wrong way, but they may be the people
Speaker:that we need. So I would say we need diversity to
Speaker:mature us, but we also need to see other people further along
Speaker:In our giftings of the apostolic gifting to help nurture that
Speaker:and not think that we have 3 heads because sometimes that's what it feels like.
Speaker:100%. And I think that that unhealthiness can sometimes be a
Speaker:bulldozer that takes out people and lets the
Speaker:the dream of the vision of the what if Destroy
Speaker:relationships. And and this is where that sense
Speaker:of interdependence something I was thinking about earlier.
Speaker:I've been talking to somebody about when we collaborate
Speaker:with others, whether we agree with them fully or not, There's a sense
Speaker:of that mutual submission and interdependency that comes from things.
Speaker:An unhealthy apostle will not have that. They will simply
Speaker:say, My will be done. I know what's best.
Speaker:You're in my way. But a healthy
Speaker:apostle is Using that kind of coaching metaphor
Speaker:is seeing success through the eyes of those
Speaker:walking with them. And their success is as
Speaker:important as the end result that you're trying to
Speaker:create. Paul could not have been the apostle that
Speaker:he was by forcing others to conform
Speaker:and bulldozing through them. He could only be APES
Speaker:successful as those that he poured into and lifted up as he walked
Speaker:this out. And so much of our, I
Speaker:think, disciple making, brokenness
Speaker:within the North American church comes from a lack of understanding,
Speaker:of the apostolic gifting, where within a healthy
Speaker:church, The APEST mindset says, I
Speaker:see where we are going and where we,
Speaker:have Hope towards, and I draw those
Speaker:along with me, and we co develop this vision
Speaker:together. And we all grow through this In a way that
Speaker:simply a a teacher that tells everybody to sit and take notes,
Speaker:won't. Or a shepherd whose focus is on everybody being happy and
Speaker:safe, Won't. The the apostle says things
Speaker:might be rough. They won't be perfect. It won't even be
Speaker:a perfect Vision of what things might
Speaker:be won't be revealed to us right now. But because we're doing this
Speaker:together, because we're coming alongside, where god is
Speaker:revealing themselves here in our neighborhood, in our city, in our in our
Speaker:context is worth going, and that is something that then they work
Speaker:along they bring together, and it's beautiful.
Speaker:And they speak courage into a congregation. They speak courage to
Speaker:try new things, And we need the apostolic vision amongst us
Speaker:to be courageous, to try new things, and for the
Speaker:the flourishing of that congregation that they will then in
Speaker:Turn, look, and say, wow. We just did that. I would have never thought of
Speaker:it, but the apostolic will do that. Hey, prophet. Let let's go
Speaker:through the prophetic. What do we mean by the prophetic? I know that word can
Speaker:be thrown around in a numerous different ways, but for
Speaker:context of understanding this passage, what are we referring to in standing this passage. What
Speaker:are we referring to in prophetic? So one of the
Speaker:tensions, again, like with the apostle, is that we often think
Speaker:of prophet in the sense of someone who has a word from God and
Speaker:is they're speaking a revelatory piece of of
Speaker:text or language or vision To the people. And that's not always
Speaker:true. Often, what prophets did in the
Speaker:Old Testament and I think what Paul is very much trying to highlight
Speaker:is their ability to speak truth. And so they see truth
Speaker:where others might not. They see into a thing and a
Speaker:place and a people That sometimes is a direct revelation
Speaker:of god like that, where it's like I see, someone
Speaker:coming down the road as As a metaphor of of
Speaker:what's coming, and this is now going to help us understand what the
Speaker:deeper truth of God is. But it's almost always trying to point people back
Speaker:to the truth And pointing people back to god. And so that
Speaker:truth and understanding of our identity in god
Speaker:becomes such a beautiful thing. And, absolutely, god uses
Speaker:prophetic revelation throughout church history, throughout the Old Testament
Speaker:to draw his people back to himself. But
Speaker:sometimes in our current state, we we forget what does it mean to
Speaker:be that. So we talk about John the Baptist being one of these great
Speaker:prophets And really last prophets
Speaker:in the Old Testament style. And so he spoke truth to power
Speaker:whether it was to Herod, Whether it was to the Pharisees calling out their
Speaker:hypocrisy, he spoke truth to Jesus
Speaker:saying, you are The son of man. You are the one who
Speaker:I've been calling these people to to look out for. And so
Speaker:there's that crazy wild hair with,
Speaker:The big shoulders kind of mindset. But I think one
Speaker:of the things that's really interesting is when you think about other prophetic,
Speaker:expressions were more akin to Anna and how she Mhmm.
Speaker:She heard the voice of god. And so this this sense
Speaker:of how She was waiting for the truth. She
Speaker:was sitting and waiting for the Messiah to come. And
Speaker:when she saw Mary and Joseph coming To
Speaker:dedicate Jesus at the temple, she knew that to be true,
Speaker:and she was able to see past what is sometimes
Speaker:our earthly haze. There is a sense of saying,
Speaker:god, where are you moving? Where are you showing me
Speaker:truth? And, again, when we see this in concert
Speaker:With these other giftings, it's how are you revealing yourself to us, god?
Speaker:And then the action becomes often through the other giftings. They're good
Speaker:learners. Like, they're they're more students Then they are the the teacher
Speaker:teaches another gifting. They're all listening to what god is saying and to
Speaker:what they're reading can read culture. They can read
Speaker:environments, And they're very attuned and sort of point us to
Speaker:the true north. I think of it sometimes you know those speeches you think
Speaker:of when you're maybe in the shower or Or walking the dog, and it
Speaker:just comes out perfectly. Like, I think most people can relate. They're like, oh,
Speaker:this is how I'm gonna tell my boss, or this is how I'm gonna Speak
Speaker:this thing out, and it just comes out perfectly. What I say about the
Speaker:prophetic often is that those with this gift that have honed in on it, They're
Speaker:not just thinking it in the shower. They're able to say it in the moment.
Speaker:And sometimes we have to bridle that and learn how to do with gentleness and
Speaker:tactfulness or whatever, but what we're saying is probably write. We just
Speaker:sometimes people aren't ready to hear the truth and can come out sharply, and
Speaker:so I'm learning to figure that out. But that prophetic
Speaker:voice will cut right to the chase and say that shower speech
Speaker:right dead on. And sometimes I get mistaken, like, oh, could you teach this class?
Speaker:I'm like, I suck at teaching. I'm just a student telling you what
Speaker:I'm thinking. We still need to lean into those other giftings.
Speaker:Absolutely. And this is why it's so easy to think about these
Speaker:as, as we go through them as a single
Speaker:entity. Wendy is x, and that is all
Speaker:she is. And I know it's very
Speaker:easy to do that. It's binary or or just
Speaker:easily compartmentalized. I think that one of the things that
Speaker:maybe we could have talked about earlier is the reality of most of us flow
Speaker:through these things in different capacities, That's right. Strengths
Speaker:throughout our life. And so if you are truly healthy,
Speaker:being a prophet that spends time alone with God that listens to heavenly
Speaker:father, that is listening to Holy Spirit, that is actively looking for
Speaker:the truth in the spaces that you inhabit, You're
Speaker:able to then have that shepherding mindset when you come and speak
Speaker:that truth. And and we talk about thing speaking truth to power, but it's
Speaker:also speaking truth in love And saying, this is what I
Speaker:see, and I love you. And sometimes that's hard.
Speaker:It's funny. Being obedient to the truth,
Speaker:like you said, doesn't always just mean blurting out the truth.
Speaker:Obedience in this role and this responsibility is
Speaker:saying, god, how best can I bring forward your
Speaker:truth and revelation? And I think that that is such an important thing
Speaker:because I know that it it it can easily go the inverse
Speaker:and become a completely Disruptive in a harmful
Speaker:way to the group and actually undo,
Speaker:perhaps, what you were attempting to create. That's right.
Speaker:Yeah. And it it could be weaponized, any of these in isolation. Sure.
Speaker:And we tend to vacillate in certain areas, and
Speaker:and I'll put some links in the show notes For people to listen to if
Speaker:they're curious about their own giftings. Some of this might be relevant,
Speaker:Tori, just through listening. They might like, oh, yeah. I I fall into these
Speaker:kind of Areas more often, but you're right.
Speaker:We we can have a variety of giftings,
Speaker:together. Let's look at the evangelist, briefly. I have
Speaker:a mentality of what an evangelist looks like. I think of Billy Graham. I
Speaker:think of the the crusades and Zach. And some of it
Speaker:adds a little cringe value to, like, oh, no. Lord, please don't give me
Speaker:evangelist giftings. But when I look it through scripture,
Speaker:it actually has so much More than that. Absolutely. How would
Speaker:you give a contemporary version of what an evangelist is or
Speaker:somebody with that gifting? So sometimes
Speaker:in the business world, they actually have started hiring,
Speaker:roles for, like, a brand evangelist. And it's interesting.
Speaker:What I find the best way to describe a contemporary evangelist
Speaker:would be to think of someone who embodies the
Speaker:ethos and the the desires of a concept
Speaker:and can't wait and just innately
Speaker:exudes that to those around them. Sometimes my
Speaker:friends talk about me as, like, a a technology evangelist or or
Speaker:even an Apple evangelist, but one of the things that's True about it
Speaker:is that I believe in, in the thing that I'm talking about,
Speaker:and I do it in a way so that when you and I are talking
Speaker:about something going on in your life, It's natural for me
Speaker:to talk about how I might come up with a solution because I saw something.
Speaker:I heard something. It's embodied in me. Mhmm. And because of
Speaker:that, I can be a natural salesman. I can see those kinds of
Speaker:things. And when we talk about, like, these these evangelists, like Wendi
Speaker:Peter brings these Thousands of people to bear on on
Speaker:something. I don't actually think that that's always the best version of what
Speaker:we would consider an evangelist. A good friend, Bill Hogg,
Speaker:he's working on a project where, actually,
Speaker:this month, they're having An evangelist conference here
Speaker:in Calgary called, The Message Advance. And one of the
Speaker:interesting pieces about it is that you have different people with
Speaker:different ways of being an evangelist, but the one
Speaker:core thing through all of them is that you can't stop them
Speaker:from talking about the good news, And that is what's
Speaker:core to them. It it is bubbling over, and
Speaker:every conversation somehow, some way Comes back to
Speaker:Jesus, and it is beautiful, and it is not
Speaker:necessarily for everyone. There are some people who are
Speaker:just They APES put in that way that
Speaker:because of their passion and their love for the
Speaker:individual, for the situation, for the people around them, It it is
Speaker:just amazing. And, like, you think about the, street corner evangelist,
Speaker:and it's like they're just yelling truth. That is not
Speaker:A good, healthy evangelist. That is somebody who wants to tell you everything that that's
Speaker:wrong with you. A true, healthy evangelist is saying, I love you,
Speaker:and because I love you, You need to know this truth.
Speaker:And I got the cure to cancer type of thing. Like, there's just something
Speaker:good. And I think the the operative word here is good news and
Speaker:Sharing good news. Sometimes we've limited it to fire
Speaker:insurance Uh-huh. To I can keep you from hell, can keep you
Speaker:from condemnation to good news as being good news
Speaker:for all people in all circumstances. Jesus spread good
Speaker:news. He operates in all 5, by the way. But Jesus
Speaker:shared good news in how he healed the leper, how he spoke to that
Speaker:woman That was condemned and how he was just there's
Speaker:social good news. There's technical good news. Like,
Speaker:there's ways of just bringing Alignment and
Speaker:kingdom values to what we do that galvanizes people for the
Speaker:flourishing of community, that is good news. And it
Speaker:doesn't take away from salvation. It doesn't take away from Christ. It's just like
Speaker:Christ is so much more than those 4 points
Speaker:on your Zach. It's so much more. It's funny though
Speaker:because my mom and I I I used to drive,
Speaker:like, thousands of kilometers a month, and I would just call my mom
Speaker:sometimes. And as someone who who was raised Catholic
Speaker:and then became a charismatic Pentecostal later on in
Speaker:life, she really embraced some of that. Like, I
Speaker:was raised on thief in the night and kind of like that.
Speaker:Like, Premillennial dispensationalism was, like, core to it. She
Speaker:was, like, feeding me. Left behind books as soon as they were coming out. But
Speaker:there was this this thing about, like, That was the point was that
Speaker:I was supposed to go out and tell people about Jesus so they don't go
Speaker:to hell. I was supposed to go out and tell people about
Speaker:Jesus Because if I didn't, it was their end
Speaker:of life. One of the things that I'll say God revealed to me was
Speaker:this mindset of, So when Jesus sent out the 72,
Speaker:what was the gospel that he was calling
Speaker:Them to proclaim what was the good news. What was
Speaker:it? Because guess what? He hadn't died yet. It wasn't Jesus has
Speaker:died for your Zach, come to heaven. It was
Speaker:something different, and this mindset of the good news should be
Speaker:the first thing. An acknowledgment of a brokenness of
Speaker:creation, a reconciling redemptive god who
Speaker:comes into creation to make right what was
Speaker:wronged. That was the good news. I have come
Speaker:to give life and life more abundantly. Well, that's
Speaker:beautiful. And if that was the guy on the the soapbox on the
Speaker:street corner yelling at people saying, you are loved.
Speaker:Jesus loves you. Guess what? There'd probably be a slightly
Speaker:different response to it Yeah. Than you're going to hell, you
Speaker:sinner. And I I I just I struggle with that because
Speaker:If there isn't love underneath it, the evangelist is just
Speaker:unhealthy and broken and is is not actually doing
Speaker:a good job at Proclaiming the good news. And it it's like it
Speaker:almost becomes like a bait and switch, where it's like, what are you actually
Speaker:selling me? Because if it's not the good news of a redemptive
Speaker:reconciliation creator coming to Earth to make
Speaker:right all of creation and offer us a chance at
Speaker:Restoration. Then, really, what is this
Speaker:all about? And so, like, that, like, forceful,
Speaker:like, Handing out Zach and yelling at people in the face. That
Speaker:isn't being an evangelist. Sorry to say that, guys. If you if you turn off
Speaker:the podcast now because I've I've offended you. I'm sorry. But I I'm telling
Speaker:you, that is not it. And when you think about that value within the
Speaker:church, it's saying it's infectious.
Speaker:It's saying these are people that cannot stop
Speaker:sharing the love of God to everyone around them I want what they have.
Speaker:In novel ways. Exactly. That's what brings
Speaker:life sometimes into the church is the evangelist. Because it's like, you know
Speaker:what? When you're around them, Everything seems a
Speaker:little bit brighter because they're just like, have you heard the good news?
Speaker:This is amazing, and that's beautiful, I think. I can't wait to
Speaker:get into that conversation. I have a wonderful guest that, will
Speaker:exemplify this well. Let's move on to shepherd.
Speaker:We Think of a a shepherd with sheep, but we also think of a
Speaker:pastoral shepherd. God is the good shepherd. But as
Speaker:a gifting within the church, we've already alluded to that that That is
Speaker:often, the person in care ministries or pastoral
Speaker:ministries within the church. Can you give me a little bit of a synopsis
Speaker:of of what shepherding could look like today.
Speaker:Totally. And in different translations, that that
Speaker:title, like, pastor has been, like, Often aligned with
Speaker:Shepherd. And so the concept of coming in and being a shepherd within
Speaker:a a congregational setting is very different than I
Speaker:think what the shepherding ethos is. Those that are drawn
Speaker:towards, like you said, care ministries where they're going into nursing
Speaker:or going into social work or simply saying, I want to be a
Speaker:part of the the health and the
Speaker:Sometimes mundane parts of life, they matter
Speaker:to those people. They're the ones that set up the meal trains when a
Speaker:family is is having a new baby. They they're the ones that are the 1st
Speaker:to check-in on you after, a loss of a family member because
Speaker:they are content And happy to sit with
Speaker:you holding your hand and say, I am with
Speaker:you. You're not alone. And so sometimes that, like, that can
Speaker:come into, like, encouragements and empathy, but it it really
Speaker:embraces that sense of I am with you. And I think
Speaker:that when we turn Shepherd into I need to protect
Speaker:you from everything in order to make that, like a helicopter parent, It
Speaker:can become difficult because I know working in a psychiatric
Speaker:hospital, one of the biggest things is that you need to challenge people. You
Speaker:need to give them Opportunities for growth, and a healthy
Speaker:individual, a healthy shepherd Zach accepting of that and is
Speaker:challenging people in the spaces that they are To say, hey. Healthy
Speaker:might look like this. Let's go for a walk. You don't wanna get out of
Speaker:your house. I'm gonna show up at your house, and we're gonna go for a
Speaker:walk. Right. They have this healthy sense of really nurturing and making
Speaker:people safe. Yep. Yet, not just being the massage therapist, but they're giving
Speaker:them exercises to to work through some of those tensions, to work through their
Speaker:anxiety, through those difficulties so that they have agency as
Speaker:well rather than just enabling codependent.
Speaker:I'm not strong in shepherding, I would be the 1st to admit.
Speaker:However, I think this is, appropriate. I just feel A
Speaker:call out to women. A lot of women have a
Speaker:shepherding pastoral heart that may not feel they have
Speaker:office of pastor within their denomination Or on the
Speaker:stage, shepherding is so much more than what we have delegated it
Speaker:to in a in election process. If you have a shepherding
Speaker:heart, a pastoral heart as women, we need you
Speaker:because the female pastoral heart Sees things and nurtures in different ways,
Speaker:and I don't wanna get too gender stereotypical. Mhmm. But I think sometimes we
Speaker:pigeonhole it into a masculine Office
Speaker:job of caring and some there's obviously many males that do it
Speaker:well, but I feel like we're missing half the church If we're
Speaker:we're also not calling that out in people that are already doing it,
Speaker:they they just need to live in that and own it. Obviously, with
Speaker:humility, but own it as a pastoral. We need these pastoral
Speaker:hearts. Well, going back to what we said earlier, This is not
Speaker:meant to be a leadership in the sense of I'm a
Speaker:staff member. I have a title. I have a an official role.
Speaker:These all of these, every single one of these is a gift
Speaker:meant to enrich, empower,
Speaker:Engage the entire body of God. And and I think
Speaker:it's hard when we think about that shepherd in the sense of it's It's
Speaker:my job. I'm gonna be the chaplain for this hockey team. I'm
Speaker:gonna be this chaplain doing these jobs
Speaker:Versus someone who says, no. I'm just I'm
Speaker:I'm not mother hen within the church. I want to
Speaker:care about you. I noticed you weren't there. I I'm wanting to
Speaker:check-in on you. And this is an important part where
Speaker:often With the prophetic and the apostolic and the evangelist
Speaker:without shepherding mindset either there or someone
Speaker:strong in the shepherd, you will Burn people out.
Speaker:You will push them away, and you will not
Speaker:not care about their current and long term
Speaker:health In the same way. And I think that this is one of those things
Speaker:that, like we said before, much of the North American
Speaker:Western church is Staffed by shepherd teachers.
Speaker:Shepherds and teachers. And, oh my goodness, coming out of the the
Speaker:pandemic and the need for care, We're gonna go into
Speaker:this in that that episode yet, but the need for self care
Speaker:beyond just the stereotypical self care, that
Speaker:soul care Of a good shepherd. That is so needed. We need to
Speaker:uphold these people that are sometimes overused and and
Speaker:abused. But Let's go on to teacher, our last one. We're
Speaker:running a little long here, but I can't stop us because this is good.
Speaker:As far as Teacher, I think it's self explanatory. It's a contemporary
Speaker:word we use already, but let's expand our imagination a little bit
Speaker:of what do we mean by having that teaching Ability in the
Speaker:body of Christ. So one of the things about a teacher is
Speaker:somebody that simply sends information,
Speaker:one person to another, is not necessarily a teacher. They may
Speaker:have the office of teacher, but that doesn't mean that they are gifted in
Speaker:teaching. One of the things that's beautiful about the understanding of this in standing of
Speaker:this in its in a gifting mindset is that a teacher is someone
Speaker:who understands how to convey information
Speaker:and expectations in a way that causes the
Speaker:individual receiving that information or that expectation to be
Speaker:able to act on it, To be able to embody it, to be able to
Speaker:take it in. And one of the things that's really interesting is that there are
Speaker:websites like rate your professor and and you get to see these
Speaker:Amazing professors and and the the world of podcasting,
Speaker:again, dating myself. I remember with my 1st iPad
Speaker:Listening to podcasts of teachers from across the world
Speaker:that were extremely gifted in conveying
Speaker:this information. We have the ability to say, like, there
Speaker:are some amazingly gifted individuals that we
Speaker:have access to around the world that are able to help both take
Speaker:complex and difficult topics and make them accessible
Speaker:and understandable to the masses. And sometimes
Speaker:that puts a lot of pressure on somebody within a local church to say, so
Speaker:then what's my job? If I can't be, I don't
Speaker:wanna name names. Pick church leader that you listen
Speaker:to their podcast. I can't be that, So I'm not
Speaker:really that good. It's like, no. Are you in your
Speaker:context? Whether you're a Sunday school teacher where you've got 10
Speaker:men On a Wednesday night going through some material, do you
Speaker:feel empowered and engaged by taking
Speaker:in the information and then Bringing it out into a way that
Speaker:engages these individuals. And I think that's a really important
Speaker:role because a teacher is not just information, it's
Speaker:action. And if we want to really go back
Speaker:to, healthy disciple making disciples as a
Speaker:mindset within our churches, We need teachers who are
Speaker:able to say, this is the information in front of us. This is how
Speaker:we can can eat it, And this is how we can walk
Speaker:it out. Because one of the biggest struggles, I think, has been that
Speaker:we have reduced teacher to pulpit ministry
Speaker:And listen to me for 45 minutes on a Sunday. And I've
Speaker:inoculated you against something, and
Speaker:that's all. But, truly, we need our teachers to to
Speaker:understand their role within the church as one's taking and
Speaker:understanding the Bible, understanding scripture, And being able to bring it
Speaker:into a context. One of the the phrases I remember in
Speaker:seminary that we used was we were like mother birds at
Speaker:times, And we would help preprocess some of this stuff.
Speaker:But much in the same way that Paul talks about it, we don't want
Speaker:people to stay on milk. We need people to learn how to
Speaker:take this and grow. And so as a teacher, sometimes your
Speaker:role is saying my role changes over time, or
Speaker:I focus on those that are younger in their faith, that are learning about what
Speaker:it means to understand their their identity as a follower of the the
Speaker:king, And and that is different than someone who is teaching
Speaker:university and needs somebody who is gonna be more engaged in a different
Speaker:way. And so we need that diversity of both teachers and
Speaker:explainers who are able to take that scripture that they
Speaker:themselves have processed and and gone through and sat
Speaker:in and come into it and say, god,
Speaker:where, how, what Do you want me to say
Speaker:and do with this? And that, I think, is a beautiful, very
Speaker:important part of this because it can easily turn into
Speaker:something that is simply Read this and memorize it
Speaker:and do a sword drill or or something like that, and that
Speaker:isn't truly teaching people anything. It becomes
Speaker:a cerebral exercise, and and sometimes that's where we've reduced
Speaker:theology into cerebral exercises. And and the teacher at the Front
Speaker:knows the Greek or or something some fancy word, and yet if it's not
Speaker:disseminated, if it's not something actionable, we we need depth
Speaker:of knowledge. But if we can't be brought down to Helping
Speaker:transformation, helping that rejuvenation and that
Speaker:awakening within the church, we're missing the point. And so I've
Speaker:sat under, the Teachings of good teachers,
Speaker:and my goodness, do they bring the word of god alive? Do they make
Speaker:cultural anthropology alive? Do they make sociology,
Speaker:psychology, all these things that we don't have to be afraid of knowledge.
Speaker:We just need good teachers from within the body of Christ that are
Speaker:centered on Christ To bring it into alignment, what does this
Speaker:mean for me as a follower of Christ? We we went through
Speaker:a lot, And I feel like there's so much more,
Speaker:and there will be so much more in the subsequent episodes. I I'm looking
Speaker:forward to hosting new guests, each week,
Speaker:And I hope that you can follow with us. Thank you so much, Zach,
Speaker:for unpacking a wealth of information, giving us a
Speaker:lot to think about. Any last words of wisdom? I'm
Speaker:gonna put your your links in the show notes as well as some some links
Speaker:to some good resources that people might be interested in. But Any final
Speaker:words for you? I would just draw us back to
Speaker:Ephesians 4 and and really this understanding of This
Speaker:is meant to create I'm reading the NLT right now.
Speaker:The responsibility of these gifts is to equip God's people to do
Speaker:his work and to build up the church, The body of Christ. And
Speaker:if we see each of these as both
Speaker:equal and necessary parts of a healthy
Speaker:body, We understand then the need to have
Speaker:each of these working in unison together. And without
Speaker:that, it it is an unhealthy, Broken
Speaker:church. And and I'm not just talking institutional. I'm not just talking
Speaker:local. I'm talking about the the whole body of Christ becomes unhealthy.
Speaker:And I think as we continue to explore this over the the
Speaker:coming weeks, I encourage people to to really wrestle with
Speaker:How do I engage people that are not like me, that are
Speaker:gifted in other ways without it being an adversarial relationship?
Speaker:And to allow for disruption and encouragement
Speaker:to come from these other gifts. Because as we do that, we
Speaker:are So much more healthy. And
Speaker:just as the the trinity is an expression of the interdependence
Speaker:and and mutual servants Of god themselves,
Speaker:I want us to view these kinds of giftings in the same way. As
Speaker:each of these serves and lifts up the other, We
Speaker:will be a more accurate representation
Speaker:of God on earth. And that, my friends,
Speaker:is how we are gonna lead differently together.
Speaker:Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care,
Speaker:where we inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith
Speaker:and living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an
Speaker:initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to
Speaker:connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community.
Speaker:You can visit their website at CareImpact c a, or visit journey with care
Speaker:dot c a to get more information on weekly episodes, journey with
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Speaker:can also leave us a message, share your thoughts, and connect with like
Speaker:minded individuals who are on their own journeys of faith and Purpose.
Speaker:Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these stories reach the
Speaker:community. Together, we can explore ways to journey in a good way,
Speaker:and Always remember to stay curious.
