Leading Differently Together | "Apostles" With Donavan Friesen
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Description
The second conversation in our "Leading Differently Together" series. Host, Wendi Park engages with Donavan Friesen in an inspiring discussion about apostleship's role in faith communities. Friesen shares his journey as a leader, emphasizing the vitality of everyday acts of faith, the nurturing of gifts within the church, and the power of the Holy Spirit.
Donavan advocates for risk-taking, humility, and co-creation with God to foster church growth and address cultural relational poverty. The conversation also touches on the personal challenges and triumphs associated with being an apostolic leader in today's world. This episode is a compelling dive into leading with care and the transformative potential of apostolic vision within the Canadian Church.
Time Stamps
[05:58] Seeking original intent and unique experiences.
[10:05] Problem solving requires deep, creative engagement.
[12:28] Asked to play guitar, challenged to sing.
[15:03] Appreciation for teachings, discipleship, and self-sacrifice.
[20:16] Grand ideas can transform communities through prayer.
[23:01] Personality types based on fivefold ministry beliefs.
[24:15] Teaching evangelism, finding gifts, bearing fruit addicting.
[30:55] Embrace diversity of apostolic giftings in congregation.
[32:31] Transformation through community approval and apostolic leadership.
Guest Links
Anchor Point Church Winnipeg: https://youranchorpoint.com/
Other Links
Reach out to us! https://journeywithcare.ca/podcast
Email: podcast@careimpact.ca
Listen To Journey With Prayer - A prayer journey corresponding to this episode: https://journeywithprayer.captivate.fm/listen
or get both podcasts on the same RSS feed! https://feeds.captivate.fm/n/careimpact-podcast
CareImpact: careimpact.ca
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DONATE! Help connect and equip more churches across Canada to effectively journey well in community with children and families: careimpact.ca/donate
Editing and production by Johan Heinrichs: arkpodcasts.ca
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
An apostle by yourself and you have everyone around you that are pastoral
Speaker:and they're they're prophetic, they're all those things. They're like, no. You can't. You
Speaker:shouldn't stop. And it's because You've never done it that way.
Speaker:Yeah. What does loving your
Speaker:neighbor actually look like? This is Journey with
Speaker:Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to love others
Speaker:well through real life stories and honest conversations.
Speaker:Hey, curious sojourners. We're continuing in our new series leading
Speaker:differently together. I'm so glad you're on this journey with me as we meet
Speaker:up with some pretty fascinating Canadians who are living in their sweet
Speaker:spots and making an impact. Ephesians 411
Speaker:and 12 says god gives some to be apostles, prophets,
Speaker:evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the
Speaker:work of the ministry and for building up the body of Christ.
Speaker:But honestly, what does that look like in Canada? You're gonna have to listen to
Speaker:find out. And today, we're gonna get really curious about apostleship.
Speaker:I'm your host, Wendy Park, joined by producer, Johan Hinrichs.
Speaker:And in studio today, we have a special guest from Winnipeg, Manitoba
Speaker:on Treaty One territory, pastor Donovan Friesen.
Speaker:Welcome to the podcast. Hey. Thank you for having me. Good to be here. It's
Speaker:so good to have you. I was looking forward to having this conversation. We go
Speaker:back a little ways, back in Bible school days. Do you remember that?
Speaker:Yeah. Briefly, I think I actually was a roommate
Speaker:with your fiance at the time, now wife. That's right. I just came back from
Speaker:Central America. This was my landing space. And, Yeah. I do
Speaker:remember your zeal for for God and for
Speaker:ministry, and you guys were getting married, and you
Speaker:were setting out for what I thought was a
Speaker:dynamic marriage and ministry future.
Speaker:And here you are. We won't say how many years later. It's a
Speaker:few. It's a few. Fill me in a little bit on on that gap.
Speaker:Where has God led you? Yeah. So I left Bible College, got married,
Speaker:was working and just establishing a home, and we were a volunteer youth pastoring in
Speaker:a church plant that my dad had done. So the church plant was going really
Speaker:well, and then the place that I was working was for my uncle.
Speaker:He got diagnosed with cancer, and he wasn't well. So I was like, that's no
Speaker:problem. You don't need to provide work. We can find something. It's no no big
Speaker:deal. We ended up moving up to a camp, for a year, and we
Speaker:wanted to discern, are we, like, called to work with young people or work
Speaker:with the church, or are we just doing it because the pastor's kid and
Speaker:you were kinda, like, charismatic in personality, so you're just the right fit?
Speaker:And we didn't make it very many months at camp before we're like, oh, man.
Speaker:We know that this is what we gotta commit our lives to. So we stayed
Speaker:for a year, came back, went to university while doing
Speaker:youth work and church work on the elder team or the deacon team, I
Speaker:guess, at the time. And so we were working in that front, and a life
Speaker:of ministry was just our lives. I wasn't getting paid by the church. I ended
Speaker:up buying a small business so that I would have more flexibility and time to
Speaker:build the kingdom, to work with youth, to work with parents. That led to
Speaker:all sorts of things. We did, from worship ministry. I worked in a in a
Speaker:private Christian school as a youth pastor in the school,
Speaker:which taught me lots on counseling, on 1 on ones, on discipleship.
Speaker:That led us to a large church in a different city close by.
Speaker:We were there for 11 years. Lots of formative things on, like, how
Speaker:to study the word, bearing fruit for the long haul. How do you
Speaker:initiate and move forward to bring transformation within
Speaker:community outside of the walls of the church? And then we came here
Speaker:to Winnipeg 8 years ago, I guess,
Speaker:and took over a work. My dad had planted the church that we're in right
Speaker:now. It was fledgling. It was kind of at its last leg. And do
Speaker:we close the doors or not? And we knew we were coming back to Winnipeg
Speaker:for a long time. And so we ended up coming. God made it clear on
Speaker:the time. And so we came here 8 years ago and have the great
Speaker:joy of leading this beautiful congregation in Winnipeg. That's awesome. And there,
Speaker:my friends, is a resume of a good person with, some
Speaker:apostleship baked in there. I don't know if that
Speaker:was sort of in your your peripheral heading into
Speaker:ministry. However, you have touched bases in a lot of things.
Speaker:You you weren't stuck into one thing. This is what I'm gonna do. You always
Speaker:saw a little bit over the fence, and and you were willing to try
Speaker:new things. Yeah. I think that's probably, like, probably one of the
Speaker:most significant things is not being satisfied, but being content.
Speaker:Seeing that something has to change. Like, when I worked in the school, I was,
Speaker:like, I love it. Like, we experienced the start or, I'd say,
Speaker:like, a revival. Like, God moved in profound ways that I didn't know
Speaker:was even possible ever and worked in this way. And
Speaker:so there's something for me, and then people would ask, like, are you ever gonna
Speaker:leave? And I'm like, well, I won't leave unless and there was, like,
Speaker:2 places that if they would call, I would have been needed to go to.
Speaker:But I didn't apply. There weren't job opportunities, But I I didn't wanna
Speaker:work with just youth, and then they hit 18 or they graduate, and
Speaker:then you just send them off on their own. I'm like, there has to be
Speaker:more. And from early, I wanted to work birth to death. I wanted
Speaker:to walk with families, with people, through marriages, through birth,
Speaker:through funerals. I just the whole thing, I felt discipleship must be
Speaker:there. And then we just experimented lots. Like, we moved when we moved to the
Speaker:other city, we bought a home, but I brought six young
Speaker:adult guys from the school that I'd worked at to come and live in
Speaker:our home with us. And that led to a few more. And over 11 years,
Speaker:I don't know, we've had 60 or 70 different people live with us, in our
Speaker:home because we felt like true discipleship must be more than just
Speaker:teaching from the pulpit or once a week you meet someone. We needed
Speaker:to, like, have them in our lives, have every area of our lives
Speaker:exposed. What does a godly home look like? What does a marriage where they love
Speaker:Jesus? What does that look like? How do we parent our own children plus these
Speaker:other children that are now kind of adopted into our clan? So these are all
Speaker:parts of the the journey. Yeah. And I sense it's not out of, yeah, what
Speaker:you said is discontentment or anxious move on to the next
Speaker:thing quickly, like, be busy bodies. But I sense this sense
Speaker:of curiosity bringing things back to its roots Yeah. To the original
Speaker:intent of community. What does it mean? Can you share a little bit of
Speaker:your experience perhaps bringing and expanding
Speaker:your home in in very unprecedented ways? It's it's not
Speaker:normal, in Canada to do what you did or or even
Speaker:maybe share a little bit of your experience at the high school and what happened
Speaker:there Wendi you thought outside the box. You you weren't just there to be a
Speaker:chaplain and and do kind of things business as usual. You were you were
Speaker:striving for something different, not for uniqueness sake Yep. But you were looking for
Speaker:something different. Can you share a little bit of those examples so we we can
Speaker:have a taste of that? Yeah. So maturity has been
Speaker:probably a driving force for me most of my life. How do we help
Speaker:people grow to be compelled by the love
Speaker:of Christ in everything that we do? So I wasn't looking for what's
Speaker:creative, what's a new way to do something. It's like, I see
Speaker:something that's lacking. It's like Paul is described as
Speaker:an apostle who's like an expert builder or
Speaker:or a wise builder, not built upon anything other than the foundation
Speaker:of Christ, but he's a builder, and then there's others that are gonna build on
Speaker:him and build on him. And that's sort of a, like, a premise of the
Speaker:apostolic in nature. So it's like looking and going, okay. I see
Speaker:all these broken homes that kids are coming from. Well, how do we help
Speaker:change the mentality, the way that they live? How do how do we help change
Speaker:it? Well, the best way that I could see is invite them in. Now that's
Speaker:very that's very biblical, but I would tell people, don't
Speaker:have a community home. It's like, don't do it. It's not easy.
Speaker:Not easy, and everything is exposed. So don't don't
Speaker:just do it. Make sure the Lord is showing you, but it's good
Speaker:for you because you have to be humble. Your life is
Speaker:exposed. So in the school, I I was like, okay. How do we help kids
Speaker:have faith? High school kids are not really supposed to. They're supposed to, have
Speaker:difficulty and trouble and be a little bit rebellious and hope that they make it
Speaker:at the end is the narrative I was taught. I was like, it can't be
Speaker:that way. So all I knew is I would read the Bible and be like,
Speaker:you gotta pray. And I wanted to learn how to pray more, so we just
Speaker:started gathering kids to pray. And we would meet in the morning, just a few
Speaker:of us, have a guitar in my office, like, 7 AM. We get an
Speaker:hour. Came. Yeah. We probably had a half a dozen. That's good. And
Speaker:then year 2, a little bit more. And then year 3, the well
Speaker:opened. And we would have 60, 70, 80 kids.
Speaker:At 5 in the morning, high school kids and myself were driving all over the
Speaker:city to pick up kids to come to pray. Then we'd meet at 6,
Speaker:and then teachers would come, then a custodian would come. And then, I remember this
Speaker:one time a young man came who was, like, the furthest from God, and
Speaker:he brought drugs. And he just came early in the morning, which high school kids
Speaker:should not wanna come early, but Jesus was with us. His his
Speaker:presence, his Spirit was there, and he just brought drugs and said, I'm now done.
Speaker:I wanna follow and live for God. And this was like, what is happening?
Speaker:Every spare, after school, before school, we just we always came
Speaker:together. We brought another person, and we just did ministry in
Speaker:the school. It was it was profound. It really changed me. Wow. And
Speaker:we would've said this is, like, revival for us. Sure. And then how do you
Speaker:end it? Which is why 6 of the guys moved with us, many different ones
Speaker:came at different points to be with us, trying to learn, how are we
Speaker:gonna disciple well? How do we help people get to maturity? How do you
Speaker:have a Paul and Timothy? Yeah. What does that look like? And these were things
Speaker:we were attempting to navigate to get answers to, and I didn't even
Speaker:know that the apostolic or the fivefold was a thing. I I I Right.
Speaker:That that was not in any bit of the teaching I grew up in. We're
Speaker:in a church planting family. This was not in my dad's purview.
Speaker:So I just said no. And we didn't go to conferences. We just there
Speaker:was so much ministry to do today. Let's just do it. I'm
Speaker:going to parties where there's kids to try to lead them to Jesus. We're doing
Speaker:street ministry wherever we could. We're finding kids in schools, and parents are
Speaker:calling, and that was sort of our lives or just how do we help people
Speaker:know Jesus deeply and intimately. And you're willing to sit with the problem long
Speaker:enough and stay up at night thinking, hey. How can we
Speaker:work through this? Rather than sometime we can be conflict avoidant
Speaker:and go to the happy, happy Jesus, clappy kind of a thing.
Speaker:Then there's there's room for all of that, but we need to sit
Speaker:with the problems long enough to get creative with what is
Speaker:God asking of us. I know I didn't know about the apostolic really either.
Speaker:It wasn't something that was part of my vocabulary and understanding
Speaker:growing up. And it was only after starting Care Impact
Speaker:that we realized, oh, this is a thing. Yeah. Right. And this is just a
Speaker:wiring, a DNA, a a sort of a a way a a
Speaker:lens of looking at it that is so needed in the church. And there's
Speaker:a variety of ways this is expressed. Like, it's unlimited. Yeah.
Speaker:But something that you said just now, stuck out to me
Speaker:that year 3 is when you saw a lot of, like,
Speaker:huge movement and growth. It was busting out. But it took year
Speaker:1 and 2 when there was 6 people. And when you were tired at 5
Speaker:in the morning, you would rather have slept in. For sure. There was no results.
Speaker:But one of the things that stuck out with me is
Speaker:that apostolic giftings, you do it
Speaker:anyway, and it takes risk. Yeah. And it takes guts. And maybe it
Speaker:would never go past 5 people, but you do it anyway.
Speaker:Yeah. And you learn through it, and you say, k. Where is it god leading
Speaker:me through this? There's always a journey. It's not a destination.
Speaker:I think that's profound. Tell me a little bit. What is it like in
Speaker:year 1 and 2 and, like, metaphorically, in all of the things that
Speaker:you've started or gotten involved with Wendi you don't see the
Speaker:results right away and not everybody's giving you the affirmation? They can't even envision
Speaker:that yet. Yeah. I think that's one of the one of the hardest
Speaker:parts of having a measure of an apostolic gift,
Speaker:which is you're often front running. You're you're leading
Speaker:something, and it doesn't look the same. And so there's
Speaker:there's few that would be, like, early adopters to be like, yeah.
Speaker:We can do it. Let's run. There's few that are like that. Most
Speaker:are giving you warning. You shouldn't do it, and so you
Speaker:question all these things. For me, it was in this time that I learned
Speaker:how God spoke. I learned that he did speak. I didn't know. I didn't believe
Speaker:that he didn't speak. I just thought on a very rare occasion, would he
Speaker:speak. And so the intimate place became so critically important
Speaker:for me. I gotta hear from him. And what does this look like? And he
Speaker:early on, he had to deal with me. I remember I was on the worship
Speaker:team. I was a percussionist or a drummer, and then we had lots of drummers
Speaker:at our little fledgling church. And they're like, we need a guitar player. I'm like,
Speaker:well, they're a guitar. And I just pick it up, and you're just gonna give
Speaker:it a whirl. But I was never gonna sing because I was told my whole
Speaker:life I had a unique voice, which to me was like that. And
Speaker:so I remember one day, the person leading worship
Speaker:didn't show, and they're like, Donovan, you have to lead. I'm like, I can't lead.
Speaker:And so I went outside, and it's brand new in hearing god. I went outside,
Speaker:and I was like I'm crying. I'm like, god, I can't do it. Like like,
Speaker:people are gonna think my voice is terrible. It's not good. And I just felt
Speaker:the spirit was, like, like, what's the worst case? They never ask you again? So
Speaker:so then you're in the same spot you are right now. The best case is
Speaker:you you find out that you can take people into the throne room, like, into
Speaker:Right. The presence of God. And you're a worshiper, so, like,
Speaker:bring people to worship me. Yeah. And it was, like, worst case. I was
Speaker:like, And that's, like, Donovan, why are you leading anyway? Are you
Speaker:leading so that, like, everyone loves you? Everyone wants
Speaker:to be with you? Are you leading because I'm asking you to? Right. And it
Speaker:was just like this shift, and I was like, okay. And it was the
Speaker:same thing here. You come, and you're preaching, and the church
Speaker:here grew really quickly at the beginning. And then
Speaker:I remember I'd come to church, and it's, like, 9 o'clock in the morning. I'd
Speaker:sit down on my chair. I'd always sit in the front because I didn't wanna
Speaker:see who was coming. And I'd sit in the front. I'm like and I look
Speaker:back at, like, 902. I'm like, nobody's here. The novelty's worn
Speaker:off. And the spirit was like, Donovan, like, did I call you to do
Speaker:it to pack a place, or did I ask you to just to be obedient?
Speaker:Right. It's like, oh, yeah, god. And it there's a shift, and
Speaker:then it didn't matter. Here on in, it doesn't matter. I'm just I know I'm
Speaker:a risk taker. I'm happy to walk down that road. I typically
Speaker:now am like, I just know if something is going to
Speaker:work or not. It's Not in your gut. Yeah. I'm I'm a builder. I know
Speaker:that. I'm like, people are like, it's not gonna work. I'm like, this one's gonna
Speaker:work. I I just know. It's like, how do you know? It's like, I
Speaker:don't, but the spirit will testify. Like and I'm like, and
Speaker:if it doesn't work because we've done I've done things that didn't work
Speaker:well. And it's, like, okay. Because I'm like, like you said, okay, God. I wanna
Speaker:learn. What were you showing me? What was happening? Was this
Speaker:you? Was I getting overly zealous and excited? And I just want to
Speaker:learn. And so I'm okay with failing, and I can admit
Speaker:failure, and I think that's been the gift for me all the way through.
Speaker:Well and I think there should be permission within the church to exercise things
Speaker:that we don't even know if we're good at or we'll ever do again. For
Speaker:sure. But I just sat in some of your teachings here this morning, and our
Speaker:family has been blessed by your pastoral team and your teachings,
Speaker:and you just identified one of the 5 things with discipleship
Speaker:globally distinctive is dying to self. And I think part of the
Speaker:apostolic gifting, dying to self is getting over ourselves
Speaker:and putting ourselves out there anyway, because it's not about us.
Speaker:It's not about our agenda or a big logo or a thing
Speaker:that we're doing, but we believe in this cause or this this need
Speaker:so much. We there's a hunger Yeah. About that that will
Speaker:compel you forward. But I'm just curious. In your formational
Speaker:years, even before you knew about the apostolic giftings and you were walking in
Speaker:it and growing in it, were there people or things in your life
Speaker:that nurtured that, that that helped you? Maybe others that
Speaker:were had that gifting that would mentor you
Speaker:or perhaps a balance within the other giftings that
Speaker:we've been talking about that helped strengthen some
Speaker:of that in you? Yeah. So I think maybe something to to
Speaker:highlight to answer that is so, again, I didn't know
Speaker:that was going on. I I'm a question asker. I'd be in, like,
Speaker:little church plant meetings, and we're trying to discuss things. I'm like, well, what about
Speaker:this? And what about this? And you kinda feel crazy because people like, no. No.
Speaker:You can't do that. But today, we're doing it. But I was already asking questions
Speaker:when I was, like, 17, 18, 19. I was like, no. There's there's something off.
Speaker:Like, this doesn't make sense. And why do we do this? Is it tradition, or
Speaker:or what is it? So there's these things that are going on. And so you
Speaker:sort of think, well, maybe I'm just maybe I'm just kind of crazy. Like, maybe
Speaker:I maybe I'm wrong. So you you find people, and you
Speaker:just ask and you dig. Not about, am I crazy? Just like, what do you
Speaker:think about this, and how does this work? And people who, it appeared to
Speaker:me, that were really fruitful in ministry, like, were so inspirational.
Speaker:Like, yeah, of course, Donavan. We can do that. And anyone that was, like,
Speaker:a professional Christian, I'll use that language, they were, like, the biggest
Speaker:naysayers. I was, like, oh, interesting. So
Speaker:this was going on. And now flipping back into Ephesians 4,
Speaker:Jesus gives these gifts to the church, apostle, prophet, evangelist,
Speaker:shepherd, teacher. It's a gift that's given by Jesus
Speaker:himself for the church. So from early on, these are things that are going on,
Speaker:and I recognize that it's like, oh, it's not a special gift to make
Speaker:it better than. It's just Right. God needs some that are gonna do the work
Speaker:of the equipping of the saints in the fivefold ministry that way. And
Speaker:then when it comes to elders, those that are gonna lead a congregation or lead
Speaker:a church, it's the apostle. The apostles gather,
Speaker:and they pray and they fast and then they lay hands on for the work
Speaker:of an elder. Elders are appointed by Mhmm. Apostles
Speaker:scripturally. So I'm like, oh, hang on a second. So I think
Speaker:that's something where, early on, people would have just looked and seen
Speaker:it. And then as I was moving into circles where there was, you know,
Speaker:prophetic words, I remember being 18 at a conference, didn't know about prophetic
Speaker:words. A dear friend of mine today didn't know them then. He just
Speaker:out of the crowd, he was, like, pointed at me and said,
Speaker:you have a calling into full time ministry. Mhmm. I've seen this upon you. And
Speaker:I was like, oh, fascinating. Because my whole life, I just wanted to
Speaker:be full time pastor. I just Wow. I wanted to be a minister from when
Speaker:I was a child. Grade 4. And everywhere that I would
Speaker:go, God affirmed my prophetic voices.
Speaker:People would come up. We'd be in a prayer meeting. I'd go to a conference.
Speaker:I'd go here, and I was like, God it's like I have this, like, little
Speaker:magnet that people just come up. It's like, God has a word for you. Like,
Speaker:out of the blue, all over, all it was from the Lord was just affirmation
Speaker:and helping me see that he called me for something specific, and I needed to
Speaker:fulfill that. Now he he calls us. He gives us each a role within the
Speaker:body of Christ, but he's helping me to see it. I needed, like, a 100
Speaker:Yeah. Prophetic words. I needed, like, a 100 people of
Speaker:the faith to remind, to say, I see this in you. Do you see this?
Speaker:And I'm like, I'm just, like, not that smart. I'm just a little
Speaker:kid. I'm just kinda doing my thing. I just love Jesus. That's all I got.
Speaker:Like, and God affirmed building,
Speaker:creating, developing, teaching, reminding,
Speaker:and it's like, okay. Now let's do it. And so that's kind of the
Speaker:path. That's beautiful because I I think it does
Speaker:require maturity, a journeying through that affirmation. It's
Speaker:not like a talent search. Yeah. That, oh, this guy's charismatic,
Speaker:and therefore, there can be a lot of flops and lack of maturity,
Speaker:lack of roots being born into. But letting yourself be
Speaker:hungry. I I think that's what I'm hearing also is that there's a hunger For
Speaker:sure. To hear from God, a hunger to to know God, and to
Speaker:not for your, like, me, myself, and I, Jesus, my boyfriend, but, lord,
Speaker:how you've you've impacted me or you've given me this heart for
Speaker:people, but how do I I live that out? Yeah.
Speaker:It's affirmed within the body of Christ and in experiences
Speaker:too. I think of times where I've done things and it
Speaker:hasn't been my beautiful show. Yeah. But have
Speaker:I learned from that? Have I learned to dive to self and be
Speaker:okay with critiques and learn from it?
Speaker:Not just find people that like your ideas. Because
Speaker:that that also can be misleading as well. Right? Yeah. There are times
Speaker:we can come up with grand ideas. Like, we're gonna get
Speaker:the bouncy castle of bouncy castle events, and we're gonna transform our
Speaker:community when god is asking us to pray or do something simple that
Speaker:is so unseen. And there is fruit. Yep. And,
Speaker:I just would like to comment too, there is fruit in the Anchor Pointe
Speaker:church that you're pastoring. And one of the things that I appreciate
Speaker:about your leadership style is that, yes, you lead
Speaker:with vision and the what ifs, and you plant that, and you're actually rising that
Speaker:within there. You're not the only one with apostolic, but you're like,
Speaker:it resonates with others. Mhmm. But you're also delegating and
Speaker:releasing. Releasing people into things that you could have
Speaker:control over. The CEO model would say, like,
Speaker:everything the the buck stops with you. But tell me a little bit
Speaker:about what that journey's like to have a pastoral heart as
Speaker:well and to want it so bad for this community and
Speaker:yet release it into not just
Speaker:other professional pastors or professional Christians, but
Speaker:fledglings in Christ that you're discipling into and releasing things
Speaker:into their hands. What's that been like? Yeah. Wendy, that's a
Speaker:that's a big challenge because there's there's a responsibility
Speaker:or an obligation biblically for the
Speaker:elders, the leaders of the church, to give extraordinary care. Yep.
Speaker:And so you're you're working on that front. Our church just happened to
Speaker:grow quite quickly. So it's like you're trying to keep up with pastoral care, then
Speaker:there's people dying, then there's weddings happening, then you're trying to hire a staff, but
Speaker:you don't and you're finding the space and you're and you're trying to release. So
Speaker:then I'd have staff say, Donovan, like, you can give us more. Like, you can
Speaker:you can give us pastoral care. I'm like, actually actually, I
Speaker:can't. Right. Because if I just if I just give it to you,
Speaker:you'll meet with someone for, like, 30 minutes and they'll walk away. Because they're they're
Speaker:not looking just for someone. They're they're they're looking for
Speaker:someone who can help them to be transformed, to know Christ, to
Speaker:to walk there. Right. And so if you wanna help me
Speaker:engage in knowing the congregation and giving care to them Yeah. So they
Speaker:start coming to you because they trust you. They love you, and
Speaker:that would be an elder in a church, would be someone like that. But
Speaker:I I didn't know. I you're true. Not just handing things off, but
Speaker:you sat with that problem, and you created a pathway
Speaker:for maturity. Can you talk about that? Yeah. This is this is the
Speaker:part. So we Ephesians 4 being the the
Speaker:passage that we're on here. So we early on, I was like, okay.
Speaker:We gotta train in these areas. Like, I I think I think
Speaker:everyone in the church probably has a bent towards like, Jesus is all of the
Speaker:5. But not everyone is it. But, like, the small a, the small p, the
Speaker:small s. Like, everyone has these, I think, and I think we could
Speaker:do personality types based on the fivefold ministry. And so
Speaker:we thought, okay. If everyone probably has a bent towards the pastoral
Speaker:or towards teaching or towards the apostolic or towards, like,
Speaker:evangelism or the prophetic, we have these things, and I think everyone was there. So
Speaker:the strategy that we felt the Lord had, and he confirmed it through the prophetic,
Speaker:was, okay. We're gonna train in this area. So today
Speaker:was journey 1, the discipleship path that God gave us on what to
Speaker:do, and it's almost exclusive on learning how to love each other, learning
Speaker:how to enter into relationship, to be deep, because we see that as one of
Speaker:the greatest lacks in our culture today. Oh, the relational poverty
Speaker:is is in the church and within our society. It's our
Speaker:number one For sure. And so the church has an obligation
Speaker:to how do we make the world more like heaven? So that's, I think, why
Speaker:the Lord would lead us there. And then the next path was we're teaching in
Speaker:the 4 we don't do the apostolic. That's that'll come at some point, but
Speaker:the other 4, we're doing those. And so we're making it just a part of
Speaker:the church. So we teach prophetic, and we have a prayer room that's open every
Speaker:Friday night. And then people will come, and they'll practice, and they'll teach, and people
Speaker:will receive. And we do this with the teaching, and then they get to teach
Speaker:in the pulpit, and they get to share all summer long. And evangelism,
Speaker:we're teaching, and we're going out, and we're trying to find the gifts
Speaker:that people have to compel them. And the theory is,
Speaker:like, it says in there, until they reach the fullness or until they become mature
Speaker:Mhmm. And complete, not lacking anything, I think if we can find
Speaker:what the gifts are, we can find what the propensity is, then people
Speaker:can begin to bear some fruitfulness. And when you begin to bear
Speaker:fruit in ministering to people and having their lives changed,
Speaker:it is so addicting. Yeah. And then people live their lives, and
Speaker:then the kingdom of heaven moves forward because people are compelled by
Speaker:Christ in them, not compelled by a pastor trying to convince
Speaker:them Right. That they should go and do something so that Christianity could
Speaker:be a movement again, not a nice idea or a nice
Speaker:organization. It's an actual organism that moves and not dependent upon
Speaker:just one. Describing some structure and some intentionality,
Speaker:absolutely, and being good stewards of the flock and the
Speaker:word of God and all of those things. At the same time, giving permission that
Speaker:you're not so dependent on the structure to bring
Speaker:people into professional Christian, but the Holy Spirit to
Speaker:minister. Right. So that you're I see it as a creating an
Speaker:appetite for more and to to allow the Holy Spirit to
Speaker:work in conjunction. That's how the Holy Spirit works. It's cocreating, right
Speaker:Right. Totally. With God. And that's and that's the growth of the church. And and
Speaker:I think one of the things with apostolic ministries and those with that
Speaker:that bent, they have a propensity to speak
Speaker:courage into those spaces that other people may not voice.
Speaker:And perhaps not always a charisma, that might be more of a
Speaker:personality thing, but a bit of a a magnetism to be brave.
Speaker:Yeah. And I think I see that within church leaders. Like, I've I used to
Speaker:get so frustrated with pastors that just existed in their church for a long
Speaker:time. And then you meet with them. They're inspired. They
Speaker:hear one thing in your church. And because someone has gone ahead of them
Speaker:and done it and bore some some fruitfulness in it, they're like,
Speaker:oh. And they can give it a whirl. And I used to be frustrated. Like,
Speaker:why don't you just ask the Lord about it? Then I realized, no. Not everyone's
Speaker:a builder. Like, that my my job is I get to
Speaker:experiment and try. The congregation is in to go on the adventure with
Speaker:me, and we're gonna go try it Yeah. And try to release and get rid
Speaker:of so we can commit more of our time to, like, the ministry of prayer
Speaker:and the word and the the building. I think that's one of the key things
Speaker:for me. Yeah. So looking that way, and then we see a pastor do it,
Speaker:and you're like, oh, this is maybe connected to an apostolic where it's like
Speaker:you're meeting with other church leaders. They are not just like, I wanna do what
Speaker:you're doing, but they're inspired. They have courage.
Speaker:They recognize, oh, there's something here. There's someone else who's done it. I
Speaker:wanna give it a whirl. And I think we see that testament all throughout,
Speaker:scripture as well. But to be honest, I I've worked with a lot of churches
Speaker:and a lot of pastors, and I I don't have that pastoral heart naturally. It
Speaker:can drain me sometimes. I lean on people that have that gifting. But what I
Speaker:often find in my own church experience that the apostolic isn't
Speaker:necessarily embraced in the same way. You're a bit
Speaker:of a unicorn pastor in the sense of having that apostolic vision
Speaker:to try to risk. It really has to be rooted in a secure attachment with
Speaker:God and community to be able to lead in a a congregational
Speaker:way. But I wonder, do you have any advice for people
Speaker:that have that small a apostolic or they
Speaker:they've been seeing that hearing that that affirmation like you were
Speaker:describing earlier, but really not finding their
Speaker:place within the body of Christ. Because sometimes the apostolic, the prophetic, the
Speaker:evangelists sometimes are let's face it. That's where we get
Speaker:nonprofits. That's where we get people starting great ministries
Speaker:and businesses and entrepreneurial type
Speaker:endeavors, and that's all okay. However, within the
Speaker:church, there's not necessarily a place for that. Can you speak to
Speaker:those that are trying to find their place in the body of Christ?
Speaker:Yeah. Specifically in the area of the apostolic. It's
Speaker:for sure, it's a lonely place. And then you hear things like we just talked
Speaker:about, like, you need balance. You don't want just people to speak and
Speaker:affirm you and all of your ideas. But on the flip side of
Speaker:that is you you don't want that, but you want to find other
Speaker:people that are apostolic in nature. And when you have
Speaker:the apostles together, there's movement. If you're an apostle by yourself
Speaker:and you have everyone around you that are pastoral and they're they're prophetic. They're all
Speaker:those things. They're like, no. You can't. You shouldn't stop. And
Speaker:it's because We've never done it that way. Yeah. But and and it's it's
Speaker:all well intended. Absolutely. But it's not movement, and apostles
Speaker:must have they they just must have movement. Like can't stop.
Speaker:No. They they just must. They're going into new territory, most apostles. I think
Speaker:there's some exceptions like John who had was an apostle of, like,
Speaker:a message of, like, you need to stay close to Jesus. But he was a
Speaker:disruptor. He was a disruptor. There was a movement even there. There there's, like, that
Speaker:holy disruption. Yeah. They're not trying to be, like, disturbers
Speaker:for the sake of it if they're healthy. Yep. However, there is a
Speaker:disruption. Yeah. So I think when you find people who are different than
Speaker:you, is good, but to find a few
Speaker:apostolic people, people who are like that to, like,
Speaker:bounce off, not yes people, but just like, what do you think? I
Speaker:had this idea, and I have many of these that I now get together with.
Speaker:I'm like, okay. I have I have this idea of what I think we need
Speaker:to do. It's gonna solve this problem in society or in the church.
Speaker:So, like, this is what I think the lord is saying, but I need I
Speaker:need to know. Like, am I missing something? What do you see? And when I'm
Speaker:together with apostolic type people, it is, like, electric. Because we don't have
Speaker:to, like You can change the world over 1 cup of coffee. Yeah. You you
Speaker:don't need to, like, appease each other. Right. You can fight each other. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:You can go hard, but you're looking, like, towards
Speaker:Jesus and building upon that foundation. So I think that's why the
Speaker:apostolic, their job is bringing balance. If you could have an
Speaker:elder, which is a lot of our our our pastors and churches are elders
Speaker:who are shepherds or who are teachers, the
Speaker:apostolic would come in and be, like, hang on a second. It's not just shepherding.
Speaker:Like, the there there's more that Jesus has for your congregation. They help to
Speaker:see and bring balance or alignment. I think because the
Speaker:apostolic has been removed almost exclusively from the church, I
Speaker:think we lack balance. We lack, like, making sure it's
Speaker:not just prophetic. It's not just shepherding. It's not just evangelism. It's we're bringing
Speaker:this together to have balance that we can actually move
Speaker:and give care and have good teaching and hear from the lord and have the
Speaker:gifts of the spirit. They're all working together. Yeah. And
Speaker:so maybe from that and to conclude here, one of the the things that I'm
Speaker:hearing is that if you have people with
Speaker:apostolic giftings that sort of resonate with some of the things that we're talking,
Speaker:obviously, everybody's a little different. They bring their uniquenesses, and God has
Speaker:certain purposes for different individuals. But if you have those within your
Speaker:congregation or in your family or in your your small group,
Speaker:listen and be part of that. We welcome those voices Yeah. That
Speaker:are different from ours, not just yes and amens, because we will have a
Speaker:1000000 ideas, but we're still like, we're testing it out with the body of
Speaker:Christ. Like, what sits well with you? And we need the pastoral. We need
Speaker:the, evangelist. We need the the teacher, the
Speaker:prophetic to to balance us, but save a
Speaker:room at the table Yeah. For those with apostolic. Don't don't get
Speaker:frustrated with us when we come up with new ideas because maybe that's
Speaker:the next best thing for revival that we're all praying for.
Speaker:We're all seeking the the edification and building up the church,
Speaker:but sometimes we're feeling stuck. Get a small a
Speaker:apostolic at your table. Yeah. You won't feel stuck even if it just
Speaker:generates energy Yeah. In the room for for something new, the what
Speaker:if. Yeah. I think that's a fantastic point. And I
Speaker:think if we loved each other, if we actually learned how to love each other
Speaker:well, then I'm like, Wendy, tell me. Like, what do you what do you see
Speaker:when you look at this passage of scripture or this problem? Oh, John, what do
Speaker:you what do you see in this threatening anymore. Right. Because you're you're trying to
Speaker:discover the gifts all working together, and all of these
Speaker:gifts are gifts that are grown, massaged, and mature
Speaker:over time. And in community. It it has to be in community.
Speaker:I think, may maybe in conclusion for myself, it's like when
Speaker:Paul gives his life to Jesus, road to Damascus, and he has this encounter
Speaker:and he's, like, changed from night and day, he's changed. Immediately,
Speaker:he's he's in the temple and he's preaching. But he submits himself in
Speaker:Antioch to the other apostolic leaders for
Speaker:years until they approve that he's a fellow
Speaker:apostle for the gospel. And I'm, like, I I just find that so
Speaker:fascinating. He went and he found other apostolic people. He wasn't just
Speaker:looking for elders. He was now going to, like, a council of sorts, to
Speaker:the the apostles of Antioch to to submit himself. A spiritual
Speaker:humility at a whole new level. It's not just going gangbuster. Correct.
Speaker:Yeah. And I I think that's really important. We get to grow in it,
Speaker:develop. He was growing in it for, like, 3 years in Antioch,
Speaker:still operating in it. It's, like, still going, and he's building and
Speaker:planting churches, but he's coming until they're like, okay.
Speaker:Yeah. We see this in here, and we trust you. You're no longer murdering Christians.
Speaker:That's pretty cool, Paul. Right? And he's leading people, and he's planting. It's I think
Speaker:it's fantastic, but I think we have to be mindful. It's not to
Speaker:idolize the apostolic. That's right. It's just a it's just a gift, and we
Speaker:don't want everyone to be apostles or everyone to be prophets. That that would not
Speaker:be good. We need some, and then we need people to do the work of
Speaker:ministry every day in the lives, in the homes with people
Speaker:loving and caring for them, and that becomes really critically important.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much, Donovan, for taking the time to talk about
Speaker:something that is a natural thing. And I just wanted to
Speaker:thank you for exercising that here in Winnipeg and,
Speaker:blessing our community. And I know the best is yet to come. And
Speaker:that's how we lead differently together. So thank you so much. It was a joy.
Speaker:Thanks for having me. Thank you
Speaker:for joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
Speaker:inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living
Speaker:Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and equipping the whole church
Speaker:to journey well in community. You can visit their website at CareImpact
Speaker:or visit journey with care.ca to get more information on weekly
Speaker:episodes, journey with prayer, and details about our upcoming events
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Speaker:thoughts, and connect with like minded individuals explore
Speaker:ways to journey in a good way. And always remember to stay
Speaker:explore ways to journey in a good way. And always remember to
Speaker:stay curious.
