Differently Wired | Autism in Community With Dr. Harold Park
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Description
How can churches create inclusive spaces for neurodivergent individuals to feel accepted and connected? Join hosts Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs as they dive into a candid conversation with Dr. Harold Park, a psychotherapist with a personal connection to neurodiversity. Together, they explore the challenges and crucial strategies for supporting those on the autism spectrum within church communities. Discover the power of acceptance, understanding, and tailored support to foster a welcoming environment where all can belong and thrive.
Time Stamps
[04:20] Counseling helps navigate neurodiversity challenges effectively.
[07:39] Struggle and acceptance, growth through self-awareness.
[12:29] Harold's strong reaction to unexpected haircut incident.
[13:33] Mom sought help for meltdowns, sought parenting help.
[17:24] Struggling with social expectations in church youth group.
[22:54] Creating inclusive environment for diverse worship needs.
[24:50] Neurodiverse individuals want acknowledgment and open dialogue.
[30:05] Thriving as a counselor despite relational challenges.
[33:06] Analytical approach in counseling, balancing logic and emotion.
[39:25] Mentoring with pastor brought clarity and direction.
[41:43] Feedback and sponsorship requests for podcast.
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Transcript
What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
Speaker:is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
Speaker:love others well through real life stories and honest
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:Welcome fellow sojourners to another episode of Journey with Care. This
Speaker:is Johan along with our co host, Wendy. Hello.
Speaker:Hello. Before we get started, I wanted to mention for those that
Speaker:have been enjoying Journey with Prayer, our corresponding prayer
Speaker:journey to every episode that we do just to kinda take it from the head
Speaker:to the heart, that is on its own separate podcast feed, so you can
Speaker:go find that on your favorite podcast player or check the show notes, and
Speaker:there will be a link there for you to find it. Journey with Prayer, make
Speaker:sure you go subscribe and follow that as well on your favorite podcast player.
Speaker:So we are in our second episode of our series,
Speaker:differently wired in community. Wendi, you wanna you wanna
Speaker:kick us off on this second episode? Yeah. We're in our series
Speaker:differently wired in community. Last episode, we had pastor
Speaker:Corinne Thomas with us from Center Street Church in Calgary to kick off
Speaker:this series, Differently Wired in Community. And today, we're gonna keep
Speaker:going diving into more stories and experiences of
Speaker:people differently wired. And when we talk about differently wired, we're talking
Speaker:about neurodiversities or disabilities, mental illness. It's gonna be a a a
Speaker:wide range. We're not going so much onto labels. But
Speaker:looking at the exceptionalities that are within our communities, within
Speaker:our churches, and we wanna look at how do people
Speaker:care differently and better together, and how can
Speaker:we care intentionally for those with exceptionalities. And
Speaker:with us today, we have a special guest, doctor Harold Park,
Speaker:who also happens to be my husband and cofounder of Care Impact.
Speaker:Welcome to the podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. It's really great
Speaker:to be back. So for those who do not know you, Harold, can you give
Speaker:a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Speaker:Sure. So I'm a psychotherapist. I've been in the field of
Speaker:counseling for approximately 20 years. I work with individuals,
Speaker:couples, and families. I work with people from a very diverse
Speaker:background. Currently, I would say I meet with probably about
Speaker:20 people a week, here in Winnipeg
Speaker:and also online. And tell us a little bit more
Speaker:about your background. What got you into counseling and
Speaker:a little bit of your educational background. Sure. So
Speaker:I studied for my master's, completed that 20 years
Speaker:ago, and then I did a doctorate in marriage and family
Speaker:therapy. Currently, I'm working with
Speaker:a psychologist here in Winnipeg, as well as 2
Speaker:other organizations, where I do online counseling and
Speaker:coaching. Well, I know firsthand that you're
Speaker:curious, you love learning, and, you have put
Speaker:hours upon hours upon hours, years upon years into the
Speaker:practice that you currently have. And most recently, you
Speaker:have added to your doctorate some
Speaker:training in some neurodiversities, being able to do assessments and
Speaker:things like that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that recent
Speaker:interest of yours? I guess it really started from,
Speaker:our family where we discovered that we do have
Speaker:neurodiversity with our kids. And just through that
Speaker:journey, you and I, we've both traveled in this journey
Speaker:together. I've really wanted to learn more about,
Speaker:ADHD and ASD. And so
Speaker:that led me to getting some professional training in these
Speaker:areas, and that's something that I really feel strongly about, which is
Speaker:just a strong family connection to the neurodiversities.
Speaker:Yeah. And so for those not familiar with ASD, that would be
Speaker:autism spectrum disorder, a superpower that we
Speaker:know very, very personally. And,
Speaker:you have been able to help other people find their
Speaker:own diagnosis. And why is it important that as you're
Speaker:helping clients in your office and online, why is it
Speaker:important for people to discover their exceptionalities?
Speaker:Is it just for a label, or is there something more? Well, you
Speaker:know, when people come in to see me, oftentimes, they're
Speaker:struggling in life in various areas. So it could be a
Speaker:relationship. It could be work. It could be
Speaker:self care. And as we start talking, oftentimes,
Speaker:there are symptoms that really are very much aligned to
Speaker:the neurodiversities of ASD and ADHD.
Speaker:And so as we look into those areas, then it really
Speaker:opens up a new lens through which a person can look at their life,
Speaker:and people can find strategies, tools, and resources
Speaker:to be able to better, cope and to manage,
Speaker:with the symptoms. And, I found it very rewarding to be
Speaker:able to help people, navigate this area because,
Speaker:you know, unfortunately, sometimes these things are not discovered until
Speaker:later in life. And people, you know, they say, you
Speaker:know, I wish I would have been diagnosed earlier. And so,
Speaker:oftentimes when I'm meeting with university students who are struggling with their
Speaker:academics, they're having a hard time focusing,
Speaker:they're being inattentive in their schoolwork.
Speaker:Through the work that we do, we're able to help them to
Speaker:define treatment for this. And it's very fulfilling to see
Speaker:that that life can be better through this awareness.
Speaker:Yeah. And I've heard comments from people who have received diagnosis, a
Speaker:sense of relief in saying, oh, I'm not broken. I'm just I'm
Speaker:just differently wired. We sometimes liken it to Apple and Android.
Speaker:Just different functionalities and and different preferences in
Speaker:how we go about life. And and when we talk about neurodiversities,
Speaker:we're also not trying to put people in a particular box. The the
Speaker:saying with autism goes, when you've met a person with autism, you've met one
Speaker:person with autism, meaning that everybody is still very
Speaker:unique. It is a spectrum. And, I'd love to dive in a
Speaker:little bit. I know you have a lot of expertise
Speaker:in a lot of different diagnoses, but particularly autism
Speaker:today, To learn a little bit more about that, how did
Speaker:you come personally to learn about autism
Speaker:and go down that path? Well, it all started,
Speaker:with our son who was having some struggles with
Speaker:school, with anxiety, and, we brought him
Speaker:to a an anxiety clinic here in the city. And
Speaker:through assessments and things like that, we discovered
Speaker:that he does have autism, high functioning
Speaker:autism. And so it was through that discovery, which was
Speaker:approximately 8 years ago, It was I think it was about 7 years
Speaker:old. Through that discovery, you know, there's a
Speaker:saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the the tree.
Speaker:So we kinda looked into actually, you kinda helped me
Speaker:to look within myself and and look into the possibility that
Speaker:I may also be on the spectrum. And so that kind of led me
Speaker:down a journey of discovery. And through that,
Speaker:we were able to contact a psychiatrist who
Speaker:was able to provide that diagnosis. So in getting
Speaker:the diagnosis, how has that helped you understand
Speaker:yourself as a father as well as a leader
Speaker:in your home, as a husband? Well, I think the first
Speaker:thing which was a struggle, was acceptance,
Speaker:because with any diagnosis, you're wondering if it's
Speaker:true, if it's not true. And there there was a bit of
Speaker:wrestling early on, and so I had to to work through
Speaker:that. And I think that as I was able to
Speaker:become more aware and more educated about,
Speaker:ASD, and I was able to look back on my
Speaker:life, it really helped me to see where my
Speaker:struggles in life came from. And through that, I think a
Speaker:key part was having a level of acceptance
Speaker:that I'm wired a certain way, so I felt like
Speaker:I could have a level of acceptance. And I also knew, on the other hand,
Speaker:that I could grow and learn, find some strategies,
Speaker:be able to accommodate in certain areas. And so
Speaker:I think just having that combination of acceptance for who
Speaker:I am and the ability to know that, you know, I'm
Speaker:still able to learn new strategies of parenting,
Speaker:of being in relationship. So I think those things
Speaker:have really helped me to to progress as a as a person.
Speaker:And for myself as a wife and mother
Speaker:of people in my family on the autism spectrum, for
Speaker:me, it was helpful in the way to have better compassion and understanding on how
Speaker:to relate and
Speaker:now see I now see there's a lot I had to learn.
Speaker:I thought I knew what autism was. There's a classic kind of sense of that
Speaker:you see it in the movies or in media or a certain type
Speaker:of, characteristics, but you don't know it until you're
Speaker:in it. And even then, I didn't know it until I it was
Speaker:introduced to me by by professionals. And as I explored
Speaker:it, I found such relief. I said, you know what? There is
Speaker:hope. I'm not alone, and my kids and my husband aren't
Speaker:alone. And there's actually strategies on how we can do things
Speaker:better, and I need to adjust. I need to adjust what I thought was
Speaker:normal, so that we can accommodate. I was outnumbered
Speaker:in, 2 biological children diagnosed on the spectrum
Speaker:and a husband. And I'm like, this is so foreign to me, but now I
Speaker:have language, now I have skills, now I can identify with
Speaker:others and learn some strategies to to move forward in a good
Speaker:way. And it really was a strengthener for our family and our
Speaker:marriage, when we came to accept and understand
Speaker:what it is we were dealing with. Maybe I was odd. You know?
Speaker:I I see such exceptionalities, beautiful things, people on
Speaker:the spectrum, such intelligence, and such, gifts
Speaker:and abilities and straightforwardness, no beating around the bush. There's
Speaker:such beautiful things that I've learned that, wow, our society would be
Speaker:better if we created some belonging for everyone.
Speaker:Okay. So, Harold, you mentioned how you're able to look back on your
Speaker:life after receiving that diagnosis, and it helped you to understand
Speaker:yourself a little bit better. Do you have any of those stories that come to
Speaker:mind when you look back on your life? Anything that you wanna
Speaker:share as you were reflecting on that time?
Speaker:I think just looking at my entire life, from
Speaker:elementary school up to
Speaker:my work experiences, in my twenties,
Speaker:I think a common theme that I felt is I just really
Speaker:felt like I was on a different wavelength
Speaker:than a lot of other people. Like, I just couldn't feel like
Speaker:I I fit in when people were having conversations.
Speaker:It was hard for me to catch up on conversations
Speaker:within a group setting. Social interactions, I
Speaker:think I was very challenged with, so I didn't have
Speaker:friends for most of my life growing
Speaker:up. And so it just seemed like, for me, I didn't
Speaker:feel a sense of belonging within the school
Speaker:community or within the the workplace.
Speaker:So, Harold, I've had some fun conversations with your mom, and we've
Speaker:reminisced about your childhood. And she really identified with my
Speaker:my parenting journey saying it'll be okay, Wendy. I understand
Speaker:because I I raised Harold, and he was actually harder to handle.
Speaker:Can you share a few, stories that stand out
Speaker:about what was it like? You were so meek and mild. That's what
Speaker:everybody sees right now as this psychotherapist
Speaker:sitting there helping so many people and calm and
Speaker:mild, but that's not who you were. That's not the picture that your mom painted
Speaker:of you. Can you give us a glimpse of who you were as a
Speaker:child trying to adjust in this weird world?
Speaker:Yeah. There's quite a few stories where I just really
Speaker:I was, I guess, unique, I guess, is one way you could
Speaker:call it. There was this one situation where, my
Speaker:mom, she cut my hair, and I didn't like
Speaker:the way she cut it. This was when I was probably about, oh, maybe
Speaker:10 years old or so, and so I really got
Speaker:upset. I was quite angry, to the point where she
Speaker:had to call the police to control my behavior.
Speaker:So I had a a hat on at the time when the police came
Speaker:into the living room, and I remember the
Speaker:the police officer, pulled up by cap and and
Speaker:said, you know what? It's not that bad. And so he tried
Speaker:to calm me down, but I did have this, rigidity
Speaker:with things. I just had a hard time if things were
Speaker:different than what I was expecting, if it was unpredictable,
Speaker:like, a different type of haircut. I really had a hard time with that. And
Speaker:so that's just one story that sticks out from my childhood.
Speaker:Yeah. Meltdowns are a real thing. I remember your mom talking to me about it,
Speaker:and and she did seek help. And she tried to get parenting help,
Speaker:psychotherapy even back then. This is, like, 40,
Speaker:50 years ago. And what saddened me about her
Speaker:story, her side of the story, was that the professionals just
Speaker:said, you know what? It's it's your parenting, and they couldn't see it for the
Speaker:diagnosis that it was that, she felt so bad that she
Speaker:wasn't doing enough. And I know that feeling as a mom, just feeling you're not
Speaker:doing enough when you see these meltdowns and this rigidity. But
Speaker:knowing what you're going through, it makes a huge difference. And there were
Speaker:other stories as well. I remember, the the story
Speaker:about you selling raffle tickets. You had your independent
Speaker:business streak in your own little world that you had,
Speaker:crafted up. You went door to door selling
Speaker:raffle tickets. You wanna tell about that? Yeah. So I was
Speaker:really focused on having pizza. And, my
Speaker:parents, they were busy with their business, and so oftentimes, I was left at
Speaker:home. And so I was probably about 10 or 12 back
Speaker:then. And so I really wanted a pizza. I had no money. And so I
Speaker:was thinking, okay, how can I get enough money for a pizza? And so
Speaker:I thought, hey. Maybe if I I'd made these raffle tickets, and
Speaker:I I put on there that I'm giving away a a TV,
Speaker:and I went door to door and sold these raffle tickets. Maybe I can raise
Speaker:a few bucks to, order a pizza. And so I
Speaker:got some paper together, cut it up, and, you know, put, like, on their
Speaker:name, address, phone number. And I said on there that I was giving
Speaker:away a TV. And I went door to door, and,
Speaker:I Wendi to this one neighbor across the street, and she said to
Speaker:me, do you have a license to do this? And so
Speaker:she was pretty skeptical about the, the handwritten
Speaker:pieces of paper that I was trying to, put off as
Speaker:tickets. So, yeah, that was just one of the antics that
Speaker:I I did when I was younger. Well, when pizza is your
Speaker:hyper focus, you do what you gotta do and, love the tenacity.
Speaker:It's it's so funny. Also, you didn't get introduced to
Speaker:church or you weren't a part of a church till later on in
Speaker:life, but there was a hyperfocus that connected you to a faith
Speaker:community that every summer, they knew you would be
Speaker:around. Can you tell us about that hyperfocus and that passion
Speaker:and exceptionality you had that connected you to a local church?
Speaker:It's not a bible study. Yeah. So when I was in my
Speaker:high school and early university years, I, was
Speaker:connected to this church, and it was really a very loose connection. It
Speaker:was connection through softball. And so every
Speaker:summer, they would start up a softball team to play in
Speaker:this church league, and people in the church, they
Speaker:knew. When I showed up in the summer, they they knew they
Speaker:said, hey. It must be softball season. Harold's here. And so I would
Speaker:go to the church for just couple of months during the summer. My
Speaker:main objective was just to be able to, you know, show off my
Speaker:ability on the field that I wasn't really focused on going to
Speaker:church service. But that was just really my
Speaker:my focus back then was to to show that I could play and
Speaker:hit some home runs. And, obviously, it did create
Speaker:some kind of community for you. I know relationships had not been
Speaker:your strength growing up, but you did feel that you could show up there
Speaker:and find belonging, hitting a a baseball,
Speaker:and, getting involved in the church in that way. Did that have
Speaker:any impact on your perception of the church or your
Speaker:view of God or faith? Looking back?
Speaker:Can you see how that may have influenced, or was it strictly
Speaker:softball? Well, I think looking back and looking at it
Speaker:through this lens that I have now, I realized
Speaker:that back then, there was an expectation
Speaker:to be a certain way, to look a certain way
Speaker:in our youth group. At the time, I was, in the
Speaker:high school and young adults groups, and I realized that, you
Speaker:know, there was an expectation that, you know, you kinda had to
Speaker:be social, you had to be interacting. And I really
Speaker:wasn't so good at that, the group dynamics.
Speaker:I, you know, I really had to force myself to try to
Speaker:have relationships. And so that was a struggle, but I
Speaker:knew that because I was good at softball, I would have a
Speaker:level of acceptance and respect, and I felt
Speaker:like people accepted me because of
Speaker:that. And, you know, if it wasn't for softball, I don't think
Speaker:I would have entered that church because I wasn't a very
Speaker:social person. Social interactions were very difficult for
Speaker:me. And so looking back, I realized that,
Speaker:you know, people who have ASD and are trying to
Speaker:feel a connection to a church, it could be very difficult
Speaker:unless there is some sort of connection point. Yeah. And and one
Speaker:could say, well, you don't look autistic, and
Speaker:and people wouldn't know you are on the spectrum. Actually, most
Speaker:people, family and friends listening to this here on the episode
Speaker:are probably not even always aware that you have this diagnosis,
Speaker:because you don't look autistic. Have you heard that saying before?
Speaker:And does your experience of church still is it still like
Speaker:that? How is your church experience today? I think
Speaker:that, you know, for the most part, in my
Speaker:experience, there hasn't been much change in the church environment. I
Speaker:know that there are some churches out there that are aware
Speaker:about neurodivergency. But for the most part, I
Speaker:think that there is a certain expectation that we do need to
Speaker:fit in a certain way, that there's an expectation that
Speaker:the leadership, they know what, neurodivergent people
Speaker:need or want. But I think there's still a lot of
Speaker:ignorance and a lot of misunderstanding
Speaker:about being neurodivergent. And so I think
Speaker:there is still a need for many of us to put
Speaker:on this mask so that we could feel like we're actually
Speaker:fitting in, that we're part of the crowd, that we feel like we
Speaker:belong. And, you know, when you put on a mask for so
Speaker:long, it can get stressful. It can get tiring.
Speaker:It can create depression, anxiety, a reduction
Speaker:in self esteem. There's so many things that can weigh you
Speaker:down when you put on this mask for so long. So I think for myself,
Speaker:over the years, I have been putting on a mask, you
Speaker:know, in various aspects of my life. But I think that in
Speaker:the church in particular, I think that, you know, it
Speaker:has been a struggle sometimes, fitting
Speaker:into some of the expectations, that are
Speaker:present in the church. So how have you done that? How have you
Speaker:found a way to fit into some of those expectations?
Speaker:Well, I would say, you know, with the church that, we've been
Speaker:attending, I, in particular, like to sit
Speaker:in the back of the church, the back row. Just in
Speaker:terms of being in the front, I I have a hard time. Just
Speaker:there's some anxiety if I'm more up in the front versus in the back.
Speaker:I I can feel more settled and more calm, in the back.
Speaker:So that's one way. You know, I do have a desire to connect with
Speaker:people, but for me, I find 1 on 1 is the
Speaker:way that I feel most comfortable. If there's several
Speaker:people talking in a group, I tend not to want to
Speaker:join in on those type of conversations. But if there's just
Speaker:one person, I I feel like that's more my my
Speaker:comfort zone. I'm gonna go back to when you talked about how
Speaker:having that connection point is what actually got you in
Speaker:the church. Not every person on the spectrum is
Speaker:gonna like baseball is their connection point. So how does
Speaker:church create those connection points for others on the spectrum to
Speaker:be able to come into the church, not knowing what those connection points
Speaker:could be? Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah. That's a good question.
Speaker:You know, I think when you think about how god has created us, how
Speaker:god has wired us, we have our different interests.
Speaker:You know, some people within the church may be very focused on
Speaker:theology, and that could be a good connection point,
Speaker:if there's certain, opportunities to connect with people who who
Speaker:wanna just talk theology. There could be other types of,
Speaker:interest groups within the church. You know, I think there's so many
Speaker:creative ways to connect people into the church.
Speaker:And so I think it's just a matter of having open
Speaker:discussion about, you know, what are things that people are wanting? What
Speaker:are things that people can be drawn into? And I think that
Speaker:that could really be a a springboard to a lot of
Speaker:potential for for people to to connect. I mean, I guess
Speaker:that's the same for anybody whether you're on the spectrum or not. But
Speaker:knowing the diagnosis of ASD, are there any things the church could be
Speaker:doing to make the church more accessible to those that are on the
Speaker:spectrum? Yeah. I would say, you know, there's
Speaker:there's a a variety of different things
Speaker:that can be helpful. Like, for 1, sensitivities
Speaker:to certain sounds, smells, environments,
Speaker:you know, even things like just the smell of the building,
Speaker:that can be triggering to certain people. It can be
Speaker:very difficult to enter an environment for people who
Speaker:are on the spectrum who have certain sensitivities. So I would say just
Speaker:being aware of that and creating some opportunities
Speaker:for, discussion about these things. Like, would it be a
Speaker:possibility, let's say, to have a room where people who are
Speaker:sensitive to sounds, they may want a more
Speaker:quieter place to be able to to focus on their
Speaker:relationship with God. So I think the key would be just to
Speaker:really create an environment of inclusivity
Speaker:where people worship and connect to God in different ways.
Speaker:And if we can talk about those ways, and I think that could
Speaker:really help us to, you know, to bring the body of Christ together.
Speaker:And I guess it requires a certain sense of felt safety for
Speaker:people to be able to open up to what they actually need.
Speaker:You were talking earlier about, having a mask and
Speaker:learning to in order to get by in life, not just in the
Speaker:church, but in general, society sort of places these expectations. In
Speaker:order to function, you have to wear a mask and and act
Speaker:neurotypical. And so I'm just wondering, what ways
Speaker:have made you feel safe with other people, 1 on 1 or in a
Speaker:group? How have you felt safe with others? How do you know when you
Speaker:can drop that mask? How do you know when you can be vulnerable with others
Speaker:and say, you know what? These sounds bother me or or these, if we could
Speaker:do it in a certain way. Wendi do you know you feel comfortable to
Speaker:to voice those things out? I think for me, it
Speaker:would be if I feel like there would
Speaker:be a level of acknowledgment, validation
Speaker:that this is my reality, that these are the
Speaker:challenges that I may have, these are the sensitivities that I may have,
Speaker:and to at least have a a sense that the person,
Speaker:or the leadership of the church is willing to listen
Speaker:to to what I would have to say. So, you know, I think in terms
Speaker:of leadership, church leadership, just to
Speaker:have an openness to hearing from people who are,
Speaker:neurodiverse. I know in a previous church, I
Speaker:did see that there were several people who were in that category,
Speaker:and I could tell that it it wasn't quite a good fit for
Speaker:them. But the question I asked was, did they have
Speaker:a feeling like they could talk to the leadership, talk about
Speaker:any ideas, talk about how they felt being in the church,
Speaker:just to have your voice heard, I think that would make a
Speaker:a a big difference, and that could be a a very
Speaker:helpful catalyst for change. And I think it's important
Speaker:to note also that people on the spectrum, it doesn't
Speaker:equate to a a cognitive delay or anything like
Speaker:that. There may be some challenges or
Speaker:disabilities attached to it, whether it's, like, auditory
Speaker:processing or sensory things that they they struggle
Speaker:with. But so often, more times than not, people
Speaker:particularly it's not a diagnostic, but it like, high functioning,
Speaker:meaning they're auditory. There there's a high cognitive ability,
Speaker:an exceptional cognitive ability that doesn't always get
Speaker:recognized within greater society. You will
Speaker:see things. Our son will see things and
Speaker:process things in a higher level often that,
Speaker:the typical audience or or person you're talking to isn't
Speaker:even thinking. I think of one example of our son
Speaker:who was struggling through childcare,
Speaker:struggling through, the Sunday school because they
Speaker:were just talking about very simplistic Jesus loves me. And all of
Speaker:that was true, except for he was like it was kinda like he was done
Speaker:with philanthropy Jesus. He wanted to ask deeper questions on the
Speaker:supremacy of Christ and the flood
Speaker:and creation, and he had deep complex questions that I would have maybe
Speaker:been asking to my professor in seminary, but he was asking at
Speaker:4 years old. And, I think there's there's a
Speaker:huge opportunity when we listen to people on
Speaker:the spectrum on what their perspective is, no matter what their
Speaker:IQ is, but to hear a different perspective. This is there's
Speaker:such beauty in a lot of those perspectives that I
Speaker:don't always think of. I think that we may sometimes
Speaker:think of people, we stereotype them as, oh,
Speaker:you don't look like that person on Rain Man. Oh, you're not
Speaker:hyper in a certain way. You know? I think that it's important to
Speaker:realize that, you know, there are highly successful
Speaker:people who have neurodiversity,
Speaker:Elon Musk, Bill Gates, people on the Shark Tank.
Speaker:So we can't we can't just go by by how they look. There there's
Speaker:a lot more to it than just appearance.
Speaker:Harold, what about not just having the church be accessible, but what
Speaker:about being able to contribute in the church? Have you found
Speaker:that the church has been able to create space
Speaker:for you to be able to contribute with with the giftings that you bring?
Speaker:You know, this is something, I think, partially, I need to
Speaker:be responsible for in realizing how I'm
Speaker:wired and how I'm able to contribute to the body of
Speaker:Christ. And so, you know, just looking at some of the gifts and how can
Speaker:I use the gifts to to grow the church?
Speaker:And so, you know, something like research. Like, for myself, I really
Speaker:like doing research. Oh, does he ever? Yeah.
Speaker:Golf balls, golf shafts. He knows how many divots in
Speaker:the golf ball and what angles they are and what, like, he he
Speaker:researches. It's one of his superpowers.
Speaker:So things like that. Research is just one of those things. But for
Speaker:myself, like, being very methodical and
Speaker:having a desire to do things by the book, and
Speaker:I I don't like surprises or changes, so kinda doing
Speaker:more routine things. So I think there's certain things within the church where I
Speaker:feel like I can use those type of abilities.
Speaker:But sometimes, you know, the challenge is with the
Speaker:ability to not do so well with social
Speaker:interactions. That can be a challenge. So when you combine, you know,
Speaker:the the social interaction challenges and then trying to use
Speaker:your gifts, it can be a challenge. So it has been difficult,
Speaker:but I think that it's not just about the leadership making
Speaker:changes, but also for me to be able to be
Speaker:assertive and state that there are some challenges
Speaker:here, but there are some strengths as well that I can contribute
Speaker:to body of Christ. Well, I've seen
Speaker:you light up in the way that you have your
Speaker:counseling practice and interact with other people 1 on
Speaker:1. And as you, you have helped
Speaker:people for years in the prisons as well, people in very
Speaker:difficult situations, or some people would say I would get too burnt out
Speaker:or too emotionally invested and and have
Speaker:compassion fatigue, and yet you were able to, day by day, routinely
Speaker:get up and face difficult, difficult situations and
Speaker:journey through difficult pathways with people in some of the most
Speaker:hopeless situations. And yet I think that was
Speaker:one of your exceptionalities. You were able to show up in ways, and people might
Speaker:think, could somebody on the autism spectrum who has relational
Speaker:difficulty truly help and counsel other people, and yet I see you do
Speaker:it with exceptionality. Can you share a little bit of what it's like to
Speaker:be a psychotherapist in a relational way, working
Speaker:1 on 1 with people and yet facing your own challenges
Speaker:relationally? I think part of
Speaker:my wiring has helped me to endure
Speaker:the challenges that that I face through the, interaction with
Speaker:people in the prisons, people going through difficult, marriage
Speaker:issues. I think for me, the way that I'm wired,
Speaker:I'm able to have empathy with others,
Speaker:but I still have a level of grounding.
Speaker:And it's hard to say whether it's definitely due to
Speaker:ASD, but I feel like I don't take my work
Speaker:home where it affects me in my home life. Like, I've never
Speaker:really felt burnt out in my life. I don't know
Speaker:specifically why, but I feel like wiring probably has
Speaker:something to do with that. But in terms of how do I
Speaker:interact with people, I think that as you grow
Speaker:as an individual, you learn strategies. And, you know, when you
Speaker:go into your masters and your doctorate program, you learn different, you
Speaker:know, counselling techniques and things like that, learning about empathetic
Speaker:statements. And and so there are some of those social
Speaker:things that I've been able to pick up over time. You know,
Speaker:certain situations are still difficult. Like, for example, if I were to
Speaker:go out in public and try to start up a conversation with someone, that would
Speaker:be a little bit challenging, not as much as when I was in
Speaker:high school, for example. You'd be resting on the coach for sure after
Speaker:that. Yeah. It it does take extra energy.
Speaker:So I can do those things, but there's internally,
Speaker:there's more going on. It's like an engine that's revving
Speaker:at a higher RPM for me, and so I do get more
Speaker:exhausted. But I think within a counseling environment, I
Speaker:have had the training. I have had the experience where I am
Speaker:able to know, you know, what are the, ways to
Speaker:interact with people. I've learned various models. Through my
Speaker:interest in research, I've been able to study different techniques
Speaker:and different things. And so that side of me, that analytical side of me
Speaker:has given me an ability to
Speaker:process things and to kind of see where things are
Speaker:going. So in for example, when I meet with a client,
Speaker:I'm able to look into, okay, what are the steps
Speaker:that I would need to do to help this person get through, let's say, depression
Speaker:or anxiety? So there's that very methodical
Speaker:research based approach that I can use. But I also know, you know, that's
Speaker:something that I learned during my master's program that I do have a
Speaker:tendency to go to the logical rather than the
Speaker:emotional, side with people. And so through that type of
Speaker:feedback, I've had to work on my, on myself to be
Speaker:a helpful counselor, to know that I can't just
Speaker:go to, you know, asking questions about what do you think about
Speaker:this? What do you think about that? But I need to ask questions
Speaker:like, how does that make you feel? And so that has been something
Speaker:I I've learned throughout my my career as as a
Speaker:counselor. I'm thinking about the lay pastor, the
Speaker:pastoral teams. How do they effectively pastor those with
Speaker:neurodiversities when they haven't had any special training
Speaker:on how to relate? They haven't had mental health training, or they they don't
Speaker:know anything about ASD. Do you have any suggestions of things that they can
Speaker:do to effectively pastor those living with these
Speaker:neurodiversities? Just thinking about the church. You
Speaker:know, we are a very diverse body, and so
Speaker:it's difficult for a pastor to be on top of
Speaker:everything out there. But in terms of being
Speaker:knowledgeable about things such as trauma
Speaker:or poverty or neurodiversity, you know, I think it's just
Speaker:trying to make an effort to read up on these things. So learning
Speaker:about ADHD, ASD, and really
Speaker:breaking down some of the stereotypes that a pastor may have about these
Speaker:areas and really looking at stories
Speaker:of of people who are, going through these
Speaker:challenges and to just really learn what is it that would be
Speaker:helpful for them in a church environment and just really being willing
Speaker:to to be open to learning. I think that would be the
Speaker:first step. And as a pastor does this and as
Speaker:they are able to reach out to people who have neurodiversity,
Speaker:that in itself will help those people to feel,
Speaker:a greater level of acceptance, and they will feel more
Speaker:welcome in the community. So just having a healthy curiosity about
Speaker:it would be a very, helpful step. Can you think of
Speaker:any practical things that they can do to create that sense of belonging
Speaker:within the whole community? Because they can go study and they
Speaker:they can learn about these things themselves, but how do they create that sense
Speaker:of belonging within their whole community? Yeah. I think there are certain
Speaker:things that can be done. For some people like
Speaker:myself, I don't like to be a part of a big crowd.
Speaker:And so maybe having a bit more of a one on one
Speaker:type of opportunity, if a pastor is able
Speaker:to take some time to reach out to someone 1
Speaker:on 1 versus trying to have a big group
Speaker:environment. Because I know the churches can have functions where
Speaker:they do things in large groups, but this may be
Speaker:discouraging or or challenging for certain individuals. So maybe
Speaker:just a smaller environment would be helpful,
Speaker:something that would reduce anxieties for
Speaker:people. So, you know, I think there there's different things that can be
Speaker:done, but I know that the key thing would be really not to
Speaker:assume what people need, but to ask and and
Speaker:see, you know, what what would be helpful for a person to really
Speaker:connect with with the body. And I wonder too if it's
Speaker:not necessarily a specific task
Speaker:what to do, but maybe a posture,
Speaker:a posture of humility and equality, of a posture of really
Speaker:wanting to listen and learn, not as an other, like,
Speaker:you're my mission project, and I wanna connect with you.
Speaker:But help me to understand, and, what is it that
Speaker:makes you light up and truly get at the same
Speaker:level, I think, would be go a long way. And I and I think it
Speaker:takes off some of the pressure for pastors and leaders
Speaker:and just everyday people like myself to not have to have the answers
Speaker:or to say the wrong thing and feel tripped up and paralyzed from saying
Speaker:anything at all or doing anything kind at all to
Speaker:to those around me on the spectrum or with other neurodivergence.
Speaker:But to just listen and to say, hey. Like, to normalize it, let's
Speaker:make neurodiversity normal. It is normal. It is actually
Speaker:more normal than everybody thinks. There's so many people walking around. I live
Speaker:and walk it all the time. Right? And I see it all around me, and
Speaker:I I don't go around putting labels on people, but I'm like, wow. This is
Speaker:really Apple and Android. Like, it is so much around us, and we often just
Speaker:don't know what we don't know. But if we could just have a posture
Speaker:of humility and just listen and learn
Speaker:and just find ways to connect, There's so many ways that we can
Speaker:connect and and be curious, like you said, I think is it's an
Speaker:adventure. Right? It it doesn't have to be getting it
Speaker:right and and walking on eggshells. Humility goes a long
Speaker:way. Yeah. That's right. The pastors don't have to
Speaker:have all the right answers right away. I think it's a a learning
Speaker:experience where we journey with people and get
Speaker:to know how they're wired, how they respond to different
Speaker:things, and to be able to to work together
Speaker:to see how can I, as a pastor, help you
Speaker:to grow closer to God in the way that God has wired
Speaker:you? Harold, I know we're we're close-up for time here,
Speaker:but I would love to pull a thread on what you were just talking about
Speaker:now. And what has caused your relationship with God to
Speaker:grow? I know you have a had a mentor that has had
Speaker:a CareImpact on how you came to Christ, but how has
Speaker:your relationship with God been nurtured and developed
Speaker:as somebody with autism connecting relationally
Speaker:with God? So when I was in my
Speaker:late twenties, I was attending church, and I
Speaker:wasn't really a fully committed Christian at the time, but,
Speaker:during that time they had a mentoring program at the church. And
Speaker:thankfully I was paired up with my pastor. And so
Speaker:through our regular meetings, he was able to walk
Speaker:with me through life issues. I was going through some challenges
Speaker:trying to figure out life, trying to figure out, what my purpose in
Speaker:life was. And through the one on one time that we
Speaker:had, every 2 weeks, he was able to bring clarity.
Speaker:He shared insights that really helped me to
Speaker:to focus on the giftings that I have
Speaker:and to be able to take risks, to be able
Speaker:to move forward with those gifting. So what it did for
Speaker:me, practically speaking, was it helped me to
Speaker:apply for the counseling program here in in the Winnipeg
Speaker:area, and so that was a big step. So without his
Speaker:support, without his encouragement, without the mentoring,
Speaker:I don't know if I would be here today without that. So that's
Speaker:why I believe that mentoring, this one on one type
Speaker:of relationship can really have a huge impact.
Speaker:And, I think that with that, that's something that churches can
Speaker:really focus on to have mentoring as a part
Speaker:of their, I guess, a way of developing Christians.
Speaker:Some really good insights and stories. Thank you so much,
Speaker:Harold, for everything that you shared today. I know there's a lot of takeaways, a
Speaker:lot of stuff we can chew on, and there's so many more stories to come
Speaker:in this series, differently wired in community, and we're looking forward to
Speaker:more conversations. Thank you so much, Harold. You're welcome. It's great
Speaker:to be here. And I know there are wives out there with
Speaker:husbands maybe not even diagnosed or maybe they are
Speaker:and moms of children with neurodiversities, I just wanna put
Speaker:a shout out to you that, reach out to us. Give me your
Speaker:questions. I would love to to connect with you. I wanna give you
Speaker:hope. I wanna say there is there are so many things in store for you.
Speaker:God has a hope and a future for you, and I am cheering for
Speaker:you, and I would love to hear from you. So, listeners, if you wanna
Speaker:respond to any any of these episodes, if you have any questions
Speaker:or thoughts, head over to journey with care dot ca slash
Speaker:podcast, and you can share those thoughts. You can leave us a voice message. We
Speaker:would love to hear from you. And, hey, we're also looking for
Speaker:sponsorships for the podcast to help keep it going, help
Speaker:spread the message. So if you're a business or if you just wanna
Speaker:help support the show, head over to our website and get get
Speaker:in touch with us, and we'd be happy to have a conversation with you.
Speaker:Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care,
Speaker:where we inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and
Speaker:living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an
Speaker:initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to
Speaker:connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community.
Speaker:You can visit their website at careimpact. Ca or visit journeywithcare.
Speaker:Ca to get more information on weekly episodes, Journey With Prayer, and details about our
Speaker:upcoming events and meetups. You can also leave us a message, share your upcoming events
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Speaker:thoughts, and connect with like minded individuals who are on their own
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Speaker:and helping these stories reach the community. Together, we can explore ways
Speaker:to journey in a good way. And always remember to stay
Speaker:curious.
