Differently Wired in Community | Neurodiversity and the Church With Dr. Kelly Friesen
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Description
How can the church better support neurodiverse individuals within its community? Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs engage with Dr. Kelly Friesen to tackle this pressing issue, exploring her research on the often negative experiences of neurodivergent individuals in church settings. As a certified neuroscience coach and minister, Dr. Friesen highlights key challenges such as sensory sensitivities and the lack of awareness among church leaders. She emphasizes the need for churches to foster an inclusive atmosphere with practical measures like quiet rooms and sensitivity to language. The conversation underscores the importance of humility, learning, and trust-building within the church and advocates for training programs to better educate church leadership. Dr. Friesen aims to ensure that all congregation members feel seen and supported, regardless of neurotype. Join us on this insightful journey towards creating a more inclusive faith communities.
Time Stamps
[05:58] Value in seeing individuals beyond labels.
[09:54] God's call stems from background and experience.
[11:09] Humble acknowledgment of diverse perspectives leads growth.
[14:22] Neurodivergent people trust but face challenges.
[17:41] Creating inclusive environment for all neurotypes is important.
[21:43] Empathy and responsiveness create inclusive congregations.
[24:27] Society should embrace and support neurodiversity.
[30:46] Share stories through books, articles; see individuals.
[33:38] Focus on God, forgive quickly, set boundaries.
Guest Links
Dr. Kelly Friensen's website: https://www.kellyfriesen.ca/
Other Links
Reach out to us! https://journeywithcare.ca/podcast
Email: podcast@careimpact.ca
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Editing and production by Johan Heinrichs: arkpodcasts.ca
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
Speaker:is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
Speaker:love others well through real life stories and honest
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:Welcome back to another episode of Journey with Care.
Speaker:I'm here with my co host, Wendy. Hey there.
Speaker:We're in the midst of a series, differently wired together for community, and we
Speaker:have a special guest on with us who who we will introduce shortly. But
Speaker:before I do that, I wanna remind you that we have our other podcast
Speaker:called Journey with Prayer, which is actually a podcast corresponding
Speaker:to each episode of this podcast journey with Kelly. You can find it on
Speaker:your favorite podcast player. Go to our website if you wanna get it a few
Speaker:days early, but it's basically a prayer journey that takes you through what
Speaker:we talked about here to go from the head to the heart. So, Wendy,
Speaker:you wanna recap where we're at in our series and maybe give a short
Speaker:introduction for our guest? Yeah. Absolutely. We've been, going
Speaker:through a series differently wired together in community, and
Speaker:I'm excited to continue that series today. In differently
Speaker:wired, we're referring to all kinds of neurodiversities and
Speaker:mental health concerns and different
Speaker:exceptionalities that are all around us in our
Speaker:communities, in our churches, and how do we care, how do we
Speaker:walk together better together. And with us today, we have
Speaker:doctor Kelly Friesen, joining us in the studio. Welcome to the
Speaker:podcast. Thank you. Good to be here. It is so good to be here
Speaker:with you, and we go back a little ways, back to our time
Speaker:in Altona. But for everybody else, can you tell us a little bit
Speaker:about yourself and what brings you into this series?
Speaker:Yeah. You know, I think it's always a bit difficult to talk about
Speaker:yourself. I'd much rather preach and teach than do that, but I'll do my best
Speaker:here. So I currently live in
Speaker:the Manitoba prairies with my husband and my daughter. And for
Speaker:those cat lovers out there, our Maine Coon, elderly Maine Coon
Speaker:cat. I'm an ordained minister, certified coach.
Speaker:I have a master of theology and a doctor of ministry
Speaker:where I concentrated on neurodiversity in the church.
Speaker:And, my background is church leadership, pastoring, ministry
Speaker:training, and, I've served 1,000
Speaker:of individuals both neurotypical and neurodivergent one to
Speaker:1 through inner healing, delivering spiritual guidance, coaching,
Speaker:and consulting over the years. And currently, my focus
Speaker:is to help people fulfill their purpose through my
Speaker:aligned with purpose program and also consulting, and
Speaker:I'm expanding my doctoral work on neurodiversity
Speaker:and the church's response, hoping to advance healthier
Speaker:approaches, equality, equity, dignity for
Speaker:all neurotypes in the church. So you've been studying a lot about
Speaker:neuroscience. You become a neuroscience coaching consultant. Can you share a
Speaker:bit of your journey towards that and how you became a
Speaker:neuroscience coaching consultant? Yeah. I've been coaching and
Speaker:consulting in various capacities over the years. And like
Speaker:many, I'm a lifelong learner, so I enjoy learning new skills,
Speaker:you know, that can help my clients. Neurodiverse is an interesting
Speaker:field as we all know, and it continues to confirm the word
Speaker:of God. And, you know, Wendi we can utilize the findings of
Speaker:neuroscience and look at it through the word,
Speaker:it can be Kelly powerful tool for us, both personally and
Speaker:professionally. And so that's why I got into, study deeper into the
Speaker:areas of neuroscience. And as part of the coaching that
Speaker:I now offer my clients as well as some of the programs that I
Speaker:have. So when we're talking about neuroscience, can you define that,
Speaker:unpack that a little bit for me? What does neuroscience mean? You
Speaker:know, my training in neuroscience is is specifically in the areas of
Speaker:coaching and leadership. And so it's to really help
Speaker:them help people on a at a very natural
Speaker:kind of way. So helping you to understand you
Speaker:know, why you might do things the way you do and why your brain is
Speaker:is kinda feeling stuck and how to get past some of those things. So that's
Speaker:the the aspect of neuroscience that I've studied, as
Speaker:opposed to, you know, those who are, like, you know, a brain surgeon would study
Speaker:different aspects of it. Right. No. I love that. And I love that you
Speaker:are dovetailing that with your background in in pastoral
Speaker:ministry and theology, and and you've referenced it before
Speaker:how sort of like science catches up with God. Like, you're understanding
Speaker:how God created the brain and how we are wired
Speaker:to think, and you're able to to journey with others. Is that correct?
Speaker:Yeah. You know, I I think that neuroscience has we
Speaker:obviously, as Christians, we do have to be choosing maybe is the
Speaker:right word in the direction that we go with it to
Speaker:ensure that we are looking at it through through the eyes of the
Speaker:word of God. And anytime you know, there is
Speaker:whether it's neuroscience or anything out there, there's going to be parallels with the Word
Speaker:of God. It all it all started with the word. It all started
Speaker:with creation of how God created things. And, you know, we we kinda
Speaker:go from there. And so there's always gonna be truths in it, and we can
Speaker:grab a hold of those things. And so often the neuroscience studies have
Speaker:just been proving what the word of God already tells us, but gives
Speaker:us tools and another aspect of how we can dig in
Speaker:deeper. So you've been coaching many, many people, and I
Speaker:imagine that you've encountered so many different kinds
Speaker:of people in that. So over the the past 20
Speaker:years in church leadership, has that influenced your work in working with
Speaker:neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals? Has that informed how you are bringing that
Speaker:into your coaching practice? Yeah. I think so. It is an innate, I think, innate
Speaker:part of me to look at each person individually. I think, innate part of me
Speaker:to look at each person individually, not assume that one person
Speaker:is like the next person regardless of whether they're near typical or neurodivergent.
Speaker:And so I think that's a really important view to have,
Speaker:because the minority of society
Speaker:would be neurodivergent, probably about Wendi. That
Speaker:percentage changes all the time. But, you know, obviously, the
Speaker:amount of neurodivergent people as opposed to neurotypical people that
Speaker:I've met 1 on 1 will be less. However, there are
Speaker:a lot and I have a lot of really it's been such an
Speaker:honor to meet, like, all neurotypes through 1 to
Speaker:1, you know, in what whatever capacity that it's been.
Speaker:And I've been able to see the pain that's been caused. A lot of people
Speaker:that that have come to me over the years, you know, they're not necessarily all
Speaker:from people that I would have pastored, but coming from different denominations,
Speaker:different places. So they come with all kinds of different pains, different
Speaker:hurts. And, yeah, the neurodivergent people that have come to me,
Speaker:there has been a lot of trauma and pain a lot of times how they've
Speaker:been treated in society And that has followed into
Speaker:the church. And my doctoral studies, I I
Speaker:specifically dove into how society has
Speaker:influenced or treated neurodivergent people has that
Speaker:followed into the church and through the studies, It was
Speaker:phenomenal how many neurodivergent people were willing
Speaker:to share their stories with me, just in my research alone for
Speaker:my doctorates. They were so thankful that somebody
Speaker:was digging into this because it's is really, really needed. And
Speaker:there isn't a lot of information out there for the church
Speaker:specifically on this topic. So that
Speaker:is partly why I've gotten into it. One of the major
Speaker:reasons that I specifically have been zoning in
Speaker:on the topic of neurodiversity in the church is just
Speaker:because, honestly, God got a hold of me on it,
Speaker:spoke really clearly and deeply to me. That's a bit of a longer
Speaker:story about 5 years ago. And so I felt
Speaker:really prompted to go down this direction, do my doctorate in this area
Speaker:and and my studies and expand this research and create,
Speaker:you know, certificate training programs to help the church
Speaker:body. When I say it like that, I mean, the church as in
Speaker:the church, church leaders, those kinds of things, the the body of the
Speaker:church, but also Christians as a whole of how we
Speaker:can be equipped to join together in
Speaker:inequality in this. Yeah. No. I appreciate that. And and
Speaker:coming from a family, I have neurodiversity in my own home
Speaker:and, it's all around me. I'm surprised that it would be
Speaker:20% because I see, like, 5050 Apple and Android often
Speaker:because it's just so apparent to me. And a lot of the times undiagnosed
Speaker:or or misunderstood. But that's helpful to hear
Speaker:your perspective. And I wonder though if the church is catching up with
Speaker:society in some of their awareness of neurodiversity that has a
Speaker:place in their theology, in how they treat each other in the church
Speaker:because it isn't often spoken of in the church in
Speaker:a acceptable way. So you've talked about equality
Speaker:and equity, dignity for all neurotypes within the church. What are
Speaker:some of the key findings that you found there in in that research?
Speaker:I think there's multiple aspects to this, not not only, you know, the
Speaker:practical and the spiritual aspects of it, but but I think it begins
Speaker:with our heart posture and
Speaker:the church's willingness to listen, the church's willingness
Speaker:to and when I say the church, I I'm
Speaker:not I'm not coming against the church. I love the church. We do too,
Speaker:but we we gotta have the honest straight talk here. So
Speaker:And gotta say the tough things sometimes. Yeah. Because we love her. Yeah. And I
Speaker:think I think because of my background, maybe it's one of the
Speaker:reasons why God's asked me to do this is is because I do, you know,
Speaker:I come from a perspective of of pastoring. I come from
Speaker:a perspective of of training, of of 1 on 1
Speaker:ministry, of coaching, consulting in all these areas for so
Speaker:many years. And so I've been able to hear these stories.
Speaker:And and so I think that willingness to stop and listen to the
Speaker:stories is is the beginning. The willingness to have the
Speaker:conversations, the willingness to heal ourselves with our
Speaker:own biases, the our willingness to do those checks
Speaker:on those internal beliefs and biases that that
Speaker:not only you know, I I think I think we don't always
Speaker:realize well, I know we don't always realize
Speaker:those inner beliefs that not only stop us from living out our own
Speaker:purpose, but they also, you know, we project those things
Speaker:to to groups of people or individuals
Speaker:without even realizing it sometimes. And so that takes time
Speaker:and grace on ourselves on each other to walk through those,
Speaker:to evaluate those things, and and to know that we're gonna make
Speaker:mistakes in the languages we choose and and as we're
Speaker:learning, as we're growing in this. Well, I think that's so
Speaker:important what you're saying here. We do have blind spots and not to hit
Speaker:ourselves over the head and say, oh, no. I have to be perfect. I don't
Speaker:wanna mess up in interacting with other people that are different from
Speaker:myself, but just humbly realizing that you and
Speaker:I and everybody around us, we all have blind spots. And in
Speaker:community, as we walk in community and and build a level of
Speaker:trust, we can we can go there into those places and
Speaker:learn and be curious and accept other people
Speaker:to teach to us what it is that we need to know, instead of
Speaker:needing to feel like we have to have it all together. And I feel
Speaker:that that would give the church a little bit of a an exhale
Speaker:if we didn't have to have the right polished theological answer for
Speaker:every neurodiversity out there, but just say, you know what? We
Speaker:want to learn. We wanna sit with. We wanna be with. And
Speaker:you were doing that in your studies. You were saying you were reaching out
Speaker:to to different people with neurodiversities and their willingness to talk. It's
Speaker:not in the right approach and humility. There is an
Speaker:eagerness to to share stories. I'm just curious on
Speaker:that note, when you were talking to a variety of different
Speaker:people, were there common threads that you heard in your
Speaker:research from these people that were sharing their story? Were there certain things
Speaker:and elements that they had in common through your your
Speaker:discussions? Absolutely. In a in a matter
Speaker:about 2 weeks, I received 78
Speaker:questionnaires back, and the representation
Speaker:was honestly phenomenal. It was representing 10 countries,
Speaker:20 denominations, ages 10 to
Speaker:over 65. There were at least
Speaker:25 varying neurodivergent traits within
Speaker:the people that got back to me so so that it was just
Speaker:incredible. And while there were
Speaker:some people who had good experiences in the church, the
Speaker:majority of them did not.
Speaker:And that boiled down to
Speaker:multiple different aspects. I'd asked a lot of questions and
Speaker:to understand different areas. So for example, what
Speaker:is their experience in the sensory area or their
Speaker:experience relationally or their experience with faith.
Speaker:So just all kinds of things when there was honestly a lot of trauma and
Speaker:a lot of the stories that they told me were, you know, they brought me
Speaker:to tears. It's a whole group of people that are really just
Speaker:calling out to be heard, to be loved, to be
Speaker:understood, to be accepted, and we need to do our part.
Speaker:So some of the the common thing is that that they told me,
Speaker:on unfortunately, and many of them have were abused within the
Speaker:church, in multiple ways. And
Speaker:and that, unfortunately, was Kelly common thread.
Speaker:And the fact that they would share that with me, most of these people I
Speaker:didn't know, was phenomenal. They wanna
Speaker:see change. And some of them were sharing because
Speaker:of anger. Others were sharing because they,
Speaker:they want to be in the church. I think the fact that so
Speaker:many neurodivergent people are
Speaker:very trusting in they believe the best in people. And so I think
Speaker:sometimes they found that they were taken advantage of or their gifts
Speaker:were exploited or the different things like that. But there was
Speaker:also a huge range of people, neurodivergent
Speaker:people who were professionals, some of them employed in the church. So many of them
Speaker:who had been volunteering in the church, you know, and and they come from
Speaker:all walks of life, all walks of life from
Speaker:doctors and nurses, educators, artists,
Speaker:professional students, which is
Speaker:amazing to me that they were saying, yes, let's do this. Let's make
Speaker:change. Right? But a lot of things that they talked about
Speaker:were sensory was really tough for them, like walking into the church
Speaker:and there would be a lot of smells in the church or there'd be a
Speaker:lot of, you know, the the media department, for
Speaker:example, you know, there's a lot of crackling going on and that was really tough
Speaker:for them, or the lights are flickering or, you know, all kinds of
Speaker:things. These things, everybody appreciates when
Speaker:they are, you know, perfected to some degree.
Speaker:But many neurodivergent people Wendi when those things
Speaker:are difficult, they can't actually participate. Right.
Speaker:Like, it actually stops them from hearing the sermon or
Speaker:engaging. It's exhausting for them. Well, it would be no different than
Speaker:passing out peanut butter at communion for a lot of anaphylactics.
Speaker:Like, it's just not compatible, and I think for for myself
Speaker:as a neurotypical, I understand it to the level that I walk with
Speaker:people in it, but I I think a lot of in the neurotypical
Speaker:kinda standard society, they think, well, you know, you just gotta toughen up and
Speaker:get through it and stuff, but it is. These are real deterrents.
Speaker:It's like taking somebody's glasses and saying, like, see,
Speaker:but you can't. Like, you just can't.
Speaker:I'm happy to hear that you are uncovering these
Speaker:stories and giving a safe place, and yet, also, obviously, we're
Speaker:all saddened to hear some of the the reflections that have come back,
Speaker:some honest reflections of their experience within the church. And, of course, we
Speaker:love the church, and we wanna see her thrive, and we want it to be
Speaker:an inclusive place. But I think there's a huge blind spot there Wendi
Speaker:we're talking about abuse, and it could be a variety of things.
Speaker:Each person has their own experience. But give me some examples
Speaker:of what does that look like, and is the church doing
Speaker:it in intentionality or out of a blind
Speaker:spot that these oppressive power plays are
Speaker:happening in the the abuse dynamics? You know,
Speaker:going back to the research, actually, I also offered
Speaker:questionnaires to church leaders Okay. Pastors and church leaders.
Speaker:I wanted their feedback. I felt it was important to hear their
Speaker:perspective. And in that 2 week span, I received about
Speaker:10 back. Given more time, I probably would have gotten more,
Speaker:but it was right across the board as far as some
Speaker:not knowing what the terms were. This was new
Speaker:terminology altogether. I began
Speaker:the questionnaires with the terms that I'd be using through it so that they'd really
Speaker:understand that. But some did not know what they were at all.
Speaker:Others were not aware of who in their community might
Speaker:be neurodivergent. And then there were others who specifically,
Speaker:I remember one that they run a home church, and they felt like they had
Speaker:an advantage because they were able to really be involved with the
Speaker:families, get to know them, their lives, those kinds of
Speaker:things. I think one of the things that we need to understand is that
Speaker:neurodiversity is making the atmosphere
Speaker:good for all neurotypes. That doesn't always mean that we're going
Speaker:to know who in the community is
Speaker:neurodivergent. We shouldn't have to ask them. They
Speaker:can offer if they want to, because it is a private thing. It's up
Speaker:to every individual to share what they want to share and what they don't wanna
Speaker:share. So when we can come into the church and we can create an
Speaker:atmosphere that is conducive to all
Speaker:neurotypes, now we're not singling anybody out. Right? So,
Speaker:for example, we can create a quiet room and we can have
Speaker:a speaker in there to hear the message that's not crackly and
Speaker:not too loud. And we can have a note on the door and we can
Speaker:say, this is a quiet room. No talking, please.
Speaker:You know? And this room should be separate from the nursery.
Speaker:It shouldn't be the same, and anyone can use it. All
Speaker:neurotypes, anyone who feels they they want to use it. We can have
Speaker:earplugs in the sanctuary that anybody can use because
Speaker:even neurotypical may find the music too loud. Give them earplugs,
Speaker:have them Friesen, just take them if you need them. You know, nobody
Speaker:is, you know, singled out that way. So it's all
Speaker:inclusive. And we can make improvements on
Speaker:sound levels, we can make improvements on lights. And and this isn't
Speaker:always going to be easy in the way of, you know, you
Speaker:have big church, you spent lots of money into it or you have a small
Speaker:church, you know, you don't have the teams or you don't have the finances to
Speaker:do those things. But everything that we do, every step forward we
Speaker:make is a good step forward. So these things don't cost
Speaker:anything. I mean, earplugs do, but not in the long run, not very
Speaker:much, but just have them available. There's so many things that we we
Speaker:can do that that at first will not cost a lot.
Speaker:And most most churches will have at least one room that they
Speaker:can have a quiet room in. Right? And if they don't,
Speaker:they can get there. There's there's ways we can we can get there.
Speaker:It's important even spiritually to understand what language
Speaker:we're using. A lot of neurodivergent people don't want a cure.
Speaker:They don't want to be fixed. And when over the pulpit, it's
Speaker:called out that this and this neurodivergent trait,
Speaker:it should be healed, that person feels like,
Speaker:okay, I'm not welcome here. And you don't, you know, you're not
Speaker:valuing who I am, because they value who they are.
Speaker:Yeah. Not all of them, but I'm just I'm just saying some people do. So
Speaker:the language we use is really, really, really CarePortal.
Speaker:Being understanding that a lot of neurodivergent people in these questionnaires
Speaker:actually, they didn't like a lot of the touch things that go on in
Speaker:church. So, you know, some of the, like, turn around and hug your neighbor.
Speaker:Right? That'll throw a lot of people off for the entire rest
Speaker:of the morning. When we wanna pray for someone, it doesn't matter
Speaker:the neurotype. We need to be respectful. Mhmm.
Speaker:Can I put my hand on your shoulder while I pray for you? Mhmm. Doesn't
Speaker:matter which neurotype it is, but that is just respecting
Speaker:somebody's personal space. And that should be a general thing that
Speaker:we, as a community, just want to embrace Mhmm.
Speaker:Regardless of who's there. You know? So so some of these things I
Speaker:think we can naturally adopt and adjust Kelly it will
Speaker:trickle into the whole community as respect and be more
Speaker:welcoming for everybody. Right. Obviously, I go
Speaker:deeper into a lot of these things in my training program, you know,
Speaker:and dive into those things. But but I think that, there's
Speaker:just simple things we can choose to do. And what I'm hearing from you
Speaker:is being in a posture of listening. Right? Like, there's not a do this, this,
Speaker:and this. This is the recipe for an inclusive congregation.
Speaker:It's paying attention to the people around you and
Speaker:being responsive to that, probably creating that Kelly safety so that they
Speaker:can respond to what they actually need. I I feel sometimes we're
Speaker:not creating the safety to even voice those things because they they're trying hard
Speaker:to mask and to fit in in order to be
Speaker:present. I'm I'm wondering. I I'm just hearing,
Speaker:like, fictitiously here, but aunt Agnes in the background
Speaker:and and grandpa Bill in the in the the front pew
Speaker:and maybe a rigid Reynolds in in the middle
Speaker:pew saying, but back in my day or why can't we just,
Speaker:like, pull it up by the bootstraps and just get over it? We used to
Speaker:never have to do all these things. We we didn't have to have these. We
Speaker:just, like, push through it, like, just love Jesus and and get through it.
Speaker:How would you respond to that? You're laughing, because
Speaker:these things happen, But why are we so,
Speaker:maybe some would say, hypersensitive to all these sensitivities?
Speaker:Are we being too sensitive? Or is there something more here?
Speaker:Yeah. You know, there's a multiple things to this. I
Speaker:think that, you know, way back when, even when I was growing
Speaker:out, things were not discussed, things were not talked about. It
Speaker:didn't matter. It doesn't if anything didn't seem like
Speaker:the norm or the typical, you know, don't talk about
Speaker:it. So a lot of people who fell into
Speaker:the category or having neurodivergent traits of any kind,
Speaker:a lot of people who could mask would mask, meaning they would
Speaker:hide who they really are. They would hide the things. They would
Speaker:learn how to, to some degree, do
Speaker:life how everyone else was doing it. But it
Speaker:was to a point and is to a point still
Speaker:of of complete and utter exhaustion and shutdown for that
Speaker:person. A lot of these things, obviously,
Speaker:we no matter what your neurotype is, we
Speaker:we do choose to, you know, want to interact and meet the
Speaker:person where they're at and those kinds of things, but it's a whole different level
Speaker:for neurodivergent person who doesn't feel like they can be
Speaker:who they are, communicate how they communicate,
Speaker:have differences Johan than what is the norm out
Speaker:there. And I use that norm and quote quote, people can't see my
Speaker:fingers, but it's really the typical. We wanna remove that
Speaker:language. It's all normal. It's all okay.
Speaker:But there is a typical Mhmm. There is a majority of society
Speaker:that does things a certain way. And the other part of
Speaker:society does may do things a different way and I say that very
Speaker:generally because every person is unique, right, every person, we can
Speaker:never assume that a neurotypical person is the same as a neurotypical
Speaker:person or a neurodivergent person is the same as the neurodivergent person beside
Speaker:them. Like, they're just everybody's unique and so we have to
Speaker:meet people where they're at and never never come to somebody
Speaker:thinking that they need healing for
Speaker:their neurodivergent trait. That's completely off on a
Speaker:different tangent than what you just asked me. How do I respond
Speaker:to that? You know, I think that we are living in a time and a
Speaker:in society where we have the ability
Speaker:now to fight for justice where there's been injustice.
Speaker:We're living in a time where I believe God wants change. One of
Speaker:the things that he placed within my heart that I briefly mentioned before,
Speaker:about 5 years ago, he grabbed ahold of me. I was at a
Speaker:an, fundraiser event, and there were, I would
Speaker:say, more than half of the people there were neurodivergent.
Speaker:And, I was actually quite uncomfortable with what I was seeing,
Speaker:but but we were invited, so we went. And,
Speaker:all of a sudden, god was like, do you see? And
Speaker:he says he these things to me before, you know, wanting to
Speaker:highlight something or show me something. So, I mean, that in itself wasn't unusual.
Speaker:But he kept saying, do you see? Do you see? And I
Speaker:kept looking and I'm like, god, if you're asking me if I see and you
Speaker:keep asking me if I see, obviously, I'm not seeing what you want me to
Speaker:see. So what do you want me to see? Like, I see, but obviously, I'm
Speaker:not seeing. I believe, but help me in my unbelief. Right?
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And
Speaker:he starts highlighting people. He starts highlighting
Speaker:traumas. He starts highlighting societal injustice. He starts
Speaker:highlighting the hardships that people have gone through.
Speaker:And he started highlighting those that that had been so squashed down in who
Speaker:they are that they didn't even know who they were anymore. And he
Speaker:says, do you see an injustice has been
Speaker:done to my people? Do you see an injustice
Speaker:has been done to my people? And so that would be my answer
Speaker:Wow. To the people who say, why is this important? Because God is
Speaker:saying, do you see an injustice has been done to my
Speaker:people? And so if this is on
Speaker:God's heart and this is what he's seeing, it needs to be on our
Speaker:heart and needs to be what we're seeing. It needs to be what's
Speaker:important to us. So that that would be my answer.
Speaker:As you were sharing that story, and thank you so much, Kelly, for
Speaker:sharing that, I was reflecting on perhaps what
Speaker:we're in our current day today, we're talking more
Speaker:about neurodiversities that hasn't been spoken of in generations
Speaker:past. But I'm thinking it's not so much a new fad of
Speaker:today. Maybe we have language different. Language evolves and
Speaker:science evolves, and we we understand things more with
Speaker:research. But maybe it's not something new on the
Speaker:market so much as when I look back at Jesus'
Speaker:time, Jesus in the synagogue, he went out
Speaker:and listened to the people. He he was with people, and
Speaker:he wasn't asking people to conform to the synagogue. In fact, he was
Speaker:bringing church to the streets, to every around the table and
Speaker:in everyday situations, fitting in and
Speaker:working with people from all kinds of diversities
Speaker:and not othering people or or asking for conformity
Speaker:to a religious structure. And perhaps we're not that
Speaker:different. Even in our more contemporary churches,
Speaker:there's structures and things in place that if you do not fit in there, you
Speaker:really can't walk in. And maybe Jesus is using you
Speaker:and other people that have this passion to to break the mold
Speaker:a little bit and help us to create spaces for
Speaker:everybody. And I think that's beautiful, the the work, and I'm so grateful that
Speaker:God has put that on your heart. We need so much more of
Speaker:that in our society. I know my family and my
Speaker:community would be enriched if we had an inclusive
Speaker:church community, if we had an inclusive society that they
Speaker:could just simply be who God created them to be. So thank you
Speaker:for sharing that. And I know other generations, we we hear stories
Speaker:of of people that even if they were left handed, they
Speaker:were, like, struck down with a stick in school. If
Speaker:they thought thing about things, they might be brilliant kids, but if they
Speaker:thought about it in a neurodiverse way, they were wearing dunce
Speaker:caps and sitting in the corner and said, you are stupid.
Speaker:And these things that were ingrained in them, and I feel
Speaker:like now we need a reversal and a and a correction and
Speaker:an alignment into who God has created us to be.
Speaker:And where would you like things to go forward? As you have
Speaker:researched these these things, as you were pastoring in a church, as
Speaker:you were coaching, What would be your hope and dream moving
Speaker:forward for us as a society to engage in?
Speaker:Like I said, I think it begins with listening to the stories
Speaker:and every story that came in is so
Speaker:important. And there are so many stories out there. Like you say, you have so
Speaker:many of your own, and I think that's the starting point. And so what you
Speaker:guys are doing with your podcast is, is making a difference. People are sharing their
Speaker:stories. And I think as people share their stories, people
Speaker:start to understand that neurodivergent
Speaker:people are human beings. They start to hear the
Speaker:pain and the traumas and they start to listen
Speaker:to what is needed for the change and so I think that's the beginning point.
Speaker:Obviously, for churches to be willing to receive training in
Speaker:it, I think is important partly why I'm creating this
Speaker:training program, which I've actually put the pre order on pause
Speaker:just because there were so many people from
Speaker:different, walks of life that were interested in it, then
Speaker:I'm I'm revamping it a bit to, actually have more than
Speaker:one track or more than one edition so that I can reach
Speaker:different groupings of people. I also wanna share the stories that have
Speaker:come in through books and through, you know, different things like that too,
Speaker:articles like cause I think it's important however we can get that out there. So
Speaker:I really appreciate you having me on here so that we can continue the
Speaker:conversation because that's what it's about. And and, again, I as
Speaker:I said before, this is just innate within me to see each
Speaker:person individually when I minister to
Speaker:them or as I see them 1 to 1 with coaching or consulting.
Speaker:But I think we need to do that regardless of the person that's
Speaker:sitting in front of us, regardless of whether they're neurotypical or neurodivergent.
Speaker:So for example, if somebody's coming to me from prayer ministry, ministry, they were
Speaker:to pray for them or for guidance, spiritual guidance,
Speaker:those kinds of things, I'll never approach them as
Speaker:though they need healing as a neurodivergent person or as
Speaker:a neurotypical person. It'd be kind of just as bizarre. Right? And I think that's
Speaker:one of the changes in our mindsets that need to take
Speaker:place is that we're not approaching that person like
Speaker:they're need a cure, their fault, or or any of those
Speaker:things. And and I'll be honest with you. So so
Speaker:often Wendi when I'm seeking the Lord to pray for
Speaker:someone, he has said, don't touch that. I put that there
Speaker:and I like it. And but there's other things that he'll lead me
Speaker:to pray for healing that's around those things is oftentimes it's
Speaker:because of the traumas they've carried from society or because it's,
Speaker:you know, their own inner beliefs because of of the things that
Speaker:have come towards them. I mean, if we look at even the the diagnostic
Speaker:criteria, it's all negative. Right? It's all if you
Speaker:hit all these negative things, they're all. And so that person has that in
Speaker:them and they think, well, all of this is wrong. Mhmm. We have
Speaker:to be able to approach someone in looking at these things and
Speaker:shifting them to pause it into a positive light. Mhmm.
Speaker:Not assuming that that person wants to be fixed.
Speaker:Some people do. Some people are really happy with who they are, but they recognize
Speaker:that there's things within that this going on that need healing, like,
Speaker:the things that I mentioned. But let's say, for example, someone's dealing with seizures.
Speaker:You know, they might be neurodivergent person, love how their brain works, love how
Speaker:creative they are, but they will also recognize that, you know what? I don't think
Speaker:God wants me to have these seizures. Let's dig in for prayer for these seizures.
Speaker:Do you know what I mean? So we have to really be listening to what
Speaker:the person wants, what they need, what God's saying to us, and never
Speaker:assume. Well, this has been so good to have this conversation with
Speaker:you, Kelly. But before we end off, I'd love for you to
Speaker:share a bit of, advice that from your perspective
Speaker:for neurodivergent individuals who may be struggling
Speaker:to find their place in their church or in in their
Speaker:society, what are some advice that you would give them as they're navigating
Speaker:life? That's a great question. And I think that probably my
Speaker:answer will be across the board for all newer types, but it's
Speaker:specific in a lot of ways, and I think neurodivergent people will
Speaker:will understand. But I would say to people who are coming into the church,
Speaker:trying to connect or who maybe have been hurt by the church,
Speaker:to keep your focus on God to his character,
Speaker:your relationship with him, because humanity will fail
Speaker:us, but he is faithful always. And
Speaker:forgive quickly. Don't let yourself be abused, but forgive
Speaker:quickly. Right? Also seek God where you're to be connected
Speaker:and be gracious to yourself and know that your style of worship and
Speaker:connection is just as important and valued by God as the person beside
Speaker:you. Also, because a lot of
Speaker:the questionnaires people would say that they felt they were
Speaker:exploited or the gifts were exploited, or or that
Speaker:their their volunteer service was overused or,
Speaker:you know, those kinds of things. I would say engage where you feel comfortable
Speaker:and be okay setting boundaries. You know your needs and you know
Speaker:where to put your energy. Be confident in that. That's
Speaker:so good. Are there some resources that you recommend to churches and
Speaker:leaders in the churches who are wanting to create more inclusivity
Speaker:for everyone that are navigating this, we we don't have
Speaker:it perfect. No one will. But are there some resources that you would
Speaker:recommend that we explore? Well, in
Speaker:the church, like I said earlier, there is not a lot of resources,
Speaker:which is one of the reasons why I'm creating neurodiversity in
Speaker:church's response certificate training program. And I honestly
Speaker:think I mean, I might be a bit biased, but I think it's gonna be
Speaker:phenomenal program for churches to grab a hold of.
Speaker:Also, I'm opening up more space
Speaker:for, church consulting. So if there are churches out there
Speaker:who want to navigate a little bit more in-depth
Speaker:or one to one with me, just how their, you know, how their churches are
Speaker:laid out and what they could maybe do to be more
Speaker:inclusive to all neurotypical. They they're welcome to contact me. Wow. That's
Speaker:wonderful. Then I need to ask you, what is your contact
Speaker:information? What's the best way for listeners to follow you and
Speaker:to engage with the the resources that you have to offer?
Speaker:Yeah. My website's great. I mean, there's a lot of information on there,
Speaker:and there's, you can message me through there, or they can email me,
Speaker:at info at Kelly Friesen c a. My website
Speaker:is kellyfriesen dot c a, and that's also my handle on Facebook and
Speaker:Instagram. So it's easy to find me.
Speaker:Subscribing to my email list is probably really great too. I don't actually send out
Speaker:a lot of emails, but when I do, they are, you know, updates. So
Speaker:that's really great too. So it's a good way to make sure they don't miss
Speaker:that. Just contact me if you need anything as far as
Speaker:consulting goes, personal consulting or coaching, or,
Speaker:if the churches are looking for something, they can contact me too. Thank you so
Speaker:much, doctor Kelly, for coming on with us. Thanks for having me. It's been
Speaker:great. So all those links will be found in the show notes to our listeners.
Speaker:I encourage you to go check out our website, and you could check out CareImpact
Speaker:dotca/podcast or journey with care dotca slash podcast to
Speaker:find our podcast as well and Journey with Prayer as well. So
Speaker:we got another great episode coming next week, so make sure you're
Speaker:sharing with others. These conversations are important.
Speaker:Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care,
Speaker:where we inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and
Speaker:living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an
Speaker:initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to
Speaker:connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community.
Speaker:You can visit their website atcareimpact. Ca or visit journeywithcare.
Speaker:Ca to get more information on weekly episodes, Journey with Prayer,
Speaker:and details about our upcoming events and meetups. You can also leave us a message,
Speaker:share your thoughts,
Speaker:us. Purpose. Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these
Speaker:stories reach the community. Together, we can explore ways to journey in
Speaker:a good way. And always remember to stay curious.
