Second Thoughts | The Plague of Indifference
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Description
How can we combat cynicism and find deeper meaning in our actions?
Host Wendi Park and Co-Host Johan Heinrichs explore this question as they reflect on their conversation with Troy in the episode titled "From Meh to Meaningful." They delve into the challenges of responding to cynicism, the role of curiosity in overcoming presumptions, and their personal experiences with mistrust and wounds. Drawing inspiration from biblical stories like Moses confronting Pharaoh, they highlight the importance of faith, calling, and resilience in the face of indifference. The episode is a call to remain obedient to one's calling, seek wisdom beyond cynicism, and engage in meaningful actions with compassion.
Time Stamps
[05:39] Balancing Faith and Cynicism
[08:14] Embracing Complexity in Faith
[12:23] Learning Through Discernment and Adaptation
[14:51] "Embracing a Higher Calling"
[16:41] Obedience and Grit Over Outcomes
[20:54] Comprehensive Support System Initiative
Scribe Music: https://linktr.ee/scribe_music
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Transcript
So how cynical is Moses going there
Speaker:again and again, saying, God, you told me to do this. You you've called
Speaker:me to do this. Like, why isn't it working? Why is he still hardening his
Speaker:heart? Oh, yeah. Like, you you say those words, I got goosebumps because
Speaker:it's just like that sense of calling that brought Moses again and
Speaker:again and again. Like, haven't you learnt from the frogs already? Who likes
Speaker:frogs and fleas and oils? Right? This
Speaker:is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious
Speaker:Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life
Speaker:stories and honest conversations.
Speaker:Hey, Wendy. Welcome back. Good to be back here. We are in
Speaker:our second Second Thoughts episode. That's a
Speaker:mouthful. We're reflecting on our conversation we
Speaker:had with Troy. What a great conversation. The episode was
Speaker:called From Meh to meaningful, a sinning sky to compassion.
Speaker:What are your thoughts just coming off of that interview? Well, I really
Speaker:loved, talking with our friend Troy. We go back quite a few years, so
Speaker:it was just really neat to connect on this topic. And and I have to
Speaker:admit, Johan, that it also challenged me.
Speaker:It gave me some framework. Even going to this last weekend, I just came back
Speaker:from Toronto from a lot of meetings and networking. And and it
Speaker:sat with me throughout the weekend, taking to heart some of the
Speaker:challenges that came out of our conversation saying, how do we
Speaker:respond to cynicism, and why am I feeling cynical?
Speaker:Can I go deeper than taking the cheap seats? And why do
Speaker:people respond cynically to maybe the
Speaker:grandiose God vision that Care Impact might be up to?
Speaker:And is it even possible, this quest we're on, to see the whole
Speaker:church engaged in caring for their neighborhood? Yeah. I thought it
Speaker:felt like it was a really important conversation for the church in
Speaker:general at this time. I was also, like, it it
Speaker:kept coming back to me over the weekend, and it forced me
Speaker:to think about the areas. Where am I cynical? Where am I
Speaker:not curious? Where am I having
Speaker:presumptions about people and about good ideas.
Speaker:And I think I came to the conclusion that I got some
Speaker:cynicism in me. Join the club, the cynics
Speaker:club. Wait. We have to be gracious. Like, if if our listeners are
Speaker:thinking, well, maybe, yeah, what Troy said resonated with me too or I'm
Speaker:facing that, I think we need to be gracious to ourselves and
Speaker:saying, what is that we talked about? It's a coping
Speaker:mechanism. It's maybe the cheap seats to how we deal with things, but
Speaker:it is a coping mechanism for probably some mistrust
Speaker:that has happened, that we have reason to kind of choose
Speaker:those upper deck seats. There's inner wounds that have not been
Speaker:dealt with that if we like, I don't wanna put my hand to the fire
Speaker:again. I already got burnt once. And so there's a cynicism that we're
Speaker:like, heck no. I'm not going near that again, and
Speaker:it's warranted. So I think there's grace for it. But,
Speaker:Johan, where do you think we can pass through it? Because, obviously, we can't
Speaker:camp in camp cynicism in everything in life because it
Speaker:it it's really not gonna be for the greater good. It's really we talked
Speaker:about it at the detriment of relationships and working through
Speaker:problems. Where do you see a a way through that? First
Speaker:of all, I think you're right. I think behind every cynic and every cynicism,
Speaker:there is a hurt. Right? Someone's been burned in one area or
Speaker:another. Otherwise, they have no reason to be cynical. And I I really
Speaker:like how like, your question you posed, how do we get through that?
Speaker:Troy really brought this to the forefront, and and it's the theme of our
Speaker:podcast. Let's get curious Mhmm. Or stay curious. Those
Speaker:are kind of the things we've been saying over the last few seasons of
Speaker:the podcast. And I really think curiosity is the key
Speaker:to battling cynicism. Just inquiring,
Speaker:asking those questions about, you know, why do you think this
Speaker:way? Why do you wanna do this? What's what's going on behind the
Speaker:scenes? Like, that's gonna battle that cynicism because
Speaker:we're just making assumptions when we're cynical. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. And and rather than bypassing around it and just saying, k. I'm
Speaker:just gonna avoid those things. I liked what we had also talked
Speaker:about, just needing that deeper sense of why
Speaker:and leading to a a higher sense of faith. I
Speaker:put it to practice this weekend. When I hear church
Speaker:leaders talking, there was I'll just say it. It was a beautiful
Speaker:city leaders network. There was over 50 people there from 19
Speaker:different cities. So city leaders that are working on church
Speaker:networks in their city. So very inspiring. But the cynic in
Speaker:me says, but church, wake up. We've been trying to work
Speaker:with you, and you're still in your your little church
Speaker:tense. And how do we land the plane? How do we really create impact?
Speaker:How do we really work with government? But what I felt
Speaker:challenged to is to sit at the table, not
Speaker:because I have higher power or greater insight, but God has
Speaker:empowered us with certain, insights and connections
Speaker:and this calling to bring the church into community and
Speaker:for the community to really influence and inspire
Speaker:the church on what it means to be the church. Faith allowed
Speaker:me to genuinely sit there at the table
Speaker:and smile in the face of
Speaker:some of our greatest obstacles and say, but God, my my
Speaker:faith isn't in convincing people around me. My faith
Speaker:isn't but God has called me. He's given me this invitation to sit
Speaker:in a room of people that are equally called by God.
Speaker:And we're all trying to just find our way through and be able to smile
Speaker:at that because days before, just to put it in
Speaker:context, we can sing Kumbaya as churches and get really
Speaker:wound up and like, oh, great. Look at this way that God has called the
Speaker:church. And that is true. But I also, days before,
Speaker:sat with cynics within government around my kitchen table
Speaker:that are reporting to the ministry in in Ottawa on
Speaker:the plight of poverty. And the cynics around my table
Speaker:said, but, Wendy, do you really think
Speaker:the church there's hope for the church? Have you seen what has happened in
Speaker:history? Do you see how enclosed their minds
Speaker:are and how they're doing damage by not listening
Speaker:to the people? And so I'm sitting both sides of the table and
Speaker:saying, Kate, we need hope outside of this world. And that's what's
Speaker:anchoring me right now and rescuing from my own cynicism. And
Speaker:I'm working it out. I I don't have it. Yeah. And those questions that you
Speaker:mentioned, those are things that that inner cynic speaks
Speaker:to us. Mhmm. And it really chokes out faith.
Speaker:Yeah. And I think that might be one of the reasons why the Bible says
Speaker:take every thought captive. Mhmm. Right? Like, we wanna take those
Speaker:questions, those thoughts, that inner cynicism, and take it captive and say, no.
Speaker:This is actually choking my faith. And you're talking about sitting around
Speaker:a table of leaders. That's one of the my biggest personal wrestles. I'm just gonna
Speaker:be vulnerable here for a second, but I feel like I've had a bad track
Speaker:record of church leaders in my life where, there have
Speaker:been some falling out, sexual sin, and all these sorts of things. And
Speaker:it's like, I'm starting to be cynical of church leaders Yeah. And
Speaker:church leadership. And ultimately, your trust is in him. Our hope
Speaker:is in him. And we don't wanna put too much stock into
Speaker:our leaders. We wanna put all our stock into the word,
Speaker:into Jesus, into our faith. But you gotta still trust
Speaker:people. You still have leaders in your life. Right? But I I think there too,
Speaker:we need to have a bit of grace and reality check there because it is
Speaker:nuanced. I think we wanna say either we trust them or we don't. And I'm
Speaker:not gonna trust an abuser. I'm sorry. I I it doesn't mean I can't forgive
Speaker:them, but I'm not gonna trust somebody who has
Speaker:exploited my gifts and my talents in ministry and have used
Speaker:it for not in a glorifying way. I cannot trust them.
Speaker:And those things are true, and it doesn't mean that we just,
Speaker:like, oh, like, let's just put a Band Aid on that. It's okay. You
Speaker:know? Like, the church is still the church. It's the god And and spiritually bypass
Speaker:that. Those things are true, and it's also true what
Speaker:we're seeing on the other side. You know? And so I feel like we have
Speaker:to be okay with the middle messy and be
Speaker:nuanced in it and yet find healing, yet
Speaker:find redemption, yet find freedom within the
Speaker:yes and, kind of zone where I
Speaker:think we have reason to have filters. I I go into churches with
Speaker:different filters on, not because I'm trying to be cynical and I don't love
Speaker:the church, but I can't unsee what I've seen. I
Speaker:can't unhear what I've heard. And I don't think God calls us to
Speaker:just put it on a shelf and just say, oh, it's not so bad. I
Speaker:think we need to have a spiritual discernment on, like, honoring and
Speaker:drawing out what is good and nurturing those things and
Speaker:not not diminishing or or burying what
Speaker:is bad. Yeah. So there's a wrestle there that I hear when you're
Speaker:saying that. So where do we go from here? Like, we kinda mentioned how
Speaker:we can get through this, and that's through curiosity. But
Speaker:you're holding these two things in tension where you've seen the reality
Speaker:of of what has happened, but you still wanna have faith. Well,
Speaker:if you you think of it as a candy shop, I think or a a
Speaker:store, I think the easiest grab would be for
Speaker:the the eye level shelf of cynicism of the sugar coated candy
Speaker:and saying, oh, let's just grab this. This is gonna be a filler. It's gonna
Speaker:give our us a sugar high. We're gonna feel okay after this.
Speaker:Or the Sour Patch Kids or whatever that just gets that cynicism out of the
Speaker:way, and we just, like, unfiltered, just, like, blow people away
Speaker:and and sort of cancel them or just spiritual bypass is not
Speaker:so bad. That would be the easiest grab on the shelf. But I think if
Speaker:we go lower and we dig deeper, I think what
Speaker:we really need is the nutrition
Speaker:of wisdom and discernment, and I think that's harder because
Speaker:we're gonna have to prepare that. We're gonna have to cook that. We're gonna
Speaker:have to really be intentional about choosing what is good for us
Speaker:in those situations rather than the cheap filler.
Speaker:Cynicism is a cheap way out.
Speaker:It's a cowardly way out, and I'm speaking to myself in
Speaker:that. But where is the wisdom and discernment to say,
Speaker:okay. These things are not okay. I'm not I'm not
Speaker:okay with that, and I don't think God is okay with some of these things.
Speaker:But then what? Is there something, a
Speaker:mustard seed, is there something even at a
Speaker:small level, that is good, that we can honor and nurture?
Speaker:Do where do we see God in the messy? Is God gone
Speaker:and out of this, or is God seeking the righteousness
Speaker:of the people to draw out what is good and
Speaker:to speak out about injustice, take away what
Speaker:is bad, call out injustice, call out unrighteousness,
Speaker:but still with a a heart that's after God that is
Speaker:loving and kind.
Speaker:And I think there's an opportunity for us to get
Speaker:vulnerable in some areas where you're not necessarily exposing
Speaker:yourself to hurt again. Let's say there's a new church initiative and
Speaker:there's that inner cynic in you that says, well, I've seen that happen. That's not
Speaker:gonna work again. Maybe if you just give yourself to that thing, you're probably
Speaker:not gonna get hurt in that situation, but you're gonna give yourself an opportunity
Speaker:to learn from maybe past mistakes
Speaker:and past things that have happened and maybe you'll find a way to grow. I
Speaker:think Yeah. I think there's an opportunity for us to grow in going beyond
Speaker:being cynics and actually try doing some things without exposing
Speaker:ourselves to being burned and hurtled. Yeah. And I think let's learn
Speaker:from our cynical and the wounds from our past and why
Speaker:we're cynical. Let let that be our teacher. Let's not just
Speaker:shame ourselves for, like, oh, I can't believe my heart is, like, so cynical about
Speaker:this. No. Let's learn from our wounds. Let's learn from our
Speaker:mistrust. What is that teaching me? And now it would be stupid
Speaker:just to go into another situation and say, oh my goodness. I didn't know it'd
Speaker:burn me again. Well, you haven't learned. And
Speaker:so how can we learn from those things? And it's okay to
Speaker:have different filters. It's it's not a skepticism
Speaker:filter, like, if we if we aim high.
Speaker:It's like a, what questions would I ask differently so I don't get
Speaker:to the same end? What red flags was I to
Speaker:Pollyanna for that I was just hoping for the best and and
Speaker:that I should be discerning further? Like, we we don't have to beat
Speaker:ourselves up for having been hurt in that way in the
Speaker:past, but how can we ask discerning questions
Speaker:and look for discerning things and be okay
Speaker:with not having perfect outcomes? Be okay to walk
Speaker:away when things just aren't ready yet. This is something that I'm
Speaker:currently working through. Not every church network, not
Speaker:every pastor and leader who loves Jesus is gonna
Speaker:get what it is the depth of what we're doing. They
Speaker:just don't. And it's not an English issue. It's not a marketing issue,
Speaker:although we're trying to get better at at speaking a very accessible
Speaker:language. I can walk into a room and there will be some people
Speaker:that just get it, and I'm like, okay. We gotta keep going deeper. And
Speaker:then there's others that we have these discussions. I realize we're just not going
Speaker:anywhere. And that's okay. It's not a judgment on them. It's just, like, this
Speaker:isn't the right timing. And so my earlier
Speaker:self, my cynical self, would have said, you know, you
Speaker:guys just don't get it. Just, like, shake the dust on my feet. Like,
Speaker:ah. Like, I I that cynical side of me. But now I can just, like,
Speaker:okay. This isn't my timing right now. I'm not gonna put a lot of
Speaker:invested time and energy into that area because I've
Speaker:learned from that. I will be burnt from that. We will go under for
Speaker:people like that, but there is a way that we can
Speaker:flourish. What comes to mind when you talk about that, I I think
Speaker:about Moses trying to get his people
Speaker:released from Egypt, from slavery, and the multiple times that he
Speaker:goes to the pharaoh, and pharaoh hardens his heart.
Speaker:Yeah. And yet he's taken a step in faith because he's being
Speaker:obedient to God. He's doing what God told him. Go to pharaoh and do this,
Speaker:and yet pharaoh hardens his heart. So how cynical is
Speaker:Moses going there again and again? Saying, god,
Speaker:you told me to do this. You you've called me to do this. Like,
Speaker:why isn't it working? Why is he still hardening his heart? And there's still
Speaker:humans involved. Right? Oh, yeah. Like, you you say those words, I
Speaker:got goosebumps because it just, like, that that calling, that
Speaker:sense of calling that brought Moses again and again and again, like,
Speaker:haven't you learned from the frogs already? Who likes frogs and fleas
Speaker:and boils? Right? Like, my goodness, that would be an opportunity for
Speaker:cynicism. But that calling came from above his own
Speaker:willpower to, like, make change happen and be a justice driven,
Speaker:like, I'm gonna, like, put my name make a name for myself.
Speaker:There was a deeper calling that kept bringing him back to the table.
Speaker:And you know what? There's some truth in that. If our calling
Speaker:is greater than the circumstances around, it will get us to
Speaker:do crazy things and keep coming back to the table. You've just challenged
Speaker:me. I need to keep going back to the the pharaohs of
Speaker:our our land. And not that everybody is like that, but it
Speaker:often the the pharaohs in my life are the pharaohs of
Speaker:indifference. This is the the topic we're talking about. The people are like,
Speaker:meh. I love it. Yes. But
Speaker:meh. Can this really happen? But let's keep coming
Speaker:back because And I think we can become cynical of the Lord.
Speaker:Right? Like, it was the Lord that told him to do it. And it's like,
Speaker:really, you're telling me like, it it's failing. So
Speaker:what are those circumstances in our life where we feel called to do something
Speaker:so strongly, and it's like, okay, the Lord definitely has his
Speaker:hand in this. I'm gonna go do it, and then we see it fail. Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, I've been in that situation many times, and I feel like a
Speaker:failure. I'm like, god. I guess I didn't hear you correctly, but no. Like, Moses
Speaker:heard the lord correctly. Mhmm. But, again, like you said, that
Speaker:timing thing. It's that time. The lord's gonna do the right thing. He's gonna soften
Speaker:that hardest heart, and it sometimes it takes human
Speaker:effort. Sometimes it takes him calling us over and over again to
Speaker:keep going at it. Right? And it's that obedience in responding
Speaker:to the call and doing it anyway where we're not doing it
Speaker:for the outcome measurements or the
Speaker:KPIs or the the success in numbers and the
Speaker:accolades of others. That's not necessarily a badge of
Speaker:honor for faithfulness, and that and sometimes or often, that can distract
Speaker:us. That's one of the plights of the church right now where we're
Speaker:we have a marketing issue, you know, and and and the the church is in
Speaker:decline. And and so, like, we need to be
Speaker:based out of calling and obedience and grit to do
Speaker:it anyway and realize that the outcomes are
Speaker:cocreated. The power comes from God, but he also needs us to
Speaker:be as obedient to actually show up and do the impossible.
Speaker:And, Johan, you and I doing the roles we were
Speaker:doing and and a lot of things people might not realize that we
Speaker:we show up for, it might not make sense to a lot of people.
Speaker:But we do it anyway. We get up and face our computer
Speaker:screens at our in our different homes because there's a sense of calling,
Speaker:and we need to keep this to heart. I think that's a good
Speaker:way to end this conversation. For listeners, like, I just want them to sit
Speaker:with that Moses story because it's gonna sit with me now, I think, for a
Speaker:little bit, going back and just being obedient to the voice of
Speaker:the Lord. And let's not be cynical of the Lord. And we've got some maggots
Speaker:in our land in politics and all kinds of things. So that analogy could keep
Speaker:going. So so pay attention to the plagues around you and
Speaker:still keep showing up. Alright. Now it's time for
Speaker:Care lingo. Alright.
Speaker:So this one I posted on the Care
Speaker:Impact podcast group on Facebook. So if
Speaker:you're not on there, you might wanna join because you can make your voice
Speaker:heard. We had a few people chime in on what they think our term today,
Speaker:which is Wrap around services.
Speaker:Wrap around services. Alright. So we had
Speaker:Galena chime in, and she thought wraparound services had to do with kind
Speaker:of wrapping your luggage at the airport, something like that. Yeah.
Speaker:You know what I thought of you, Galena? I took a picture of it in
Speaker:Toronto. I was stuck there. My flight got canceled, and they had wraparound
Speaker:services just for you. They were wrapping luggage. I thought of you. And then
Speaker:there's Kathy who said, isn't that kind of a spa treatment, a
Speaker:chocolate wrap for me? She says. It was a fun play on,
Speaker:words here. Now when I heard the term wraparound
Speaker:services for the first time, I didn't know what it meant. I don't
Speaker:remember what I thought it meant, but here's what I might think it meant if
Speaker:I was hearing it for the first time. So I actually have two definitions like
Speaker:I did last time. I'd like to do two. I don't know why. You know,
Speaker:it's that extra employee at Subway specializing in those
Speaker:customers that ask for a wrap rather than a bun. Oh. That would be a
Speaker:wrap around service. Yeah. I am the wrap around Subway The wrap
Speaker:around artist. Called. Yeah. Wrap around artist. That's it. Now this
Speaker:is my favorite one. You know when you have that worship leader that's a
Speaker:hip hop artist, he grabs that wireless microphone and starts bouncing around
Speaker:the congregation, getting everyone into it. He's wrapping around.
Speaker:He and it's a service. It's a church this is called the wraparound
Speaker:service where we're gonna get our rapper worship leader
Speaker:getting this whole building jiving and bouncing. I saw that in the
Speaker:notes, Johanna, and this is why I don't get it again because I'm not a
Speaker:musician. I'm like, I hope he explains himself, but now I get
Speaker:it. So, yeah, kudos to you. That was Would you go to a wraparound
Speaker:service? If it was Troy. Troy is a really good, rapper.
Speaker:He really is. And I've had him do wraparound in not just
Speaker:in the youth, but with with seniors, and they were into
Speaker:it. So we did wraparound service according to your definition.
Speaker:So Troy, if you're listening, come to Winnipeg and do a wraparound service,
Speaker:and we will show up. We will show up, and we will promote it on
Speaker:the podcast. And this is Care Impact's first ever
Speaker:wraparound service with Troy Lydian. Shameless plug. Find
Speaker:Scribe. He goes by the, name Scribe for his music on
Speaker:any music players. Yes. I'll
Speaker:throw that in the show notes too. Yeah. So Wendy, what is a wraparound service?
Speaker:Well, wraparound service, I guess, it's normal to me. I I wouldn't have thought of
Speaker:all of these different definitions, but it simply means it's it we're
Speaker:looking at the complexity of a situation and looking at it
Speaker:multifaceted. So finding a supportive,
Speaker:village around a individual, a
Speaker:family, or a, group of people
Speaker:that need wrap around support. So you can't just, like, give a
Speaker:Band Aid and like, if you just give them food at the food bank, it'll
Speaker:be fine. But food bank is at the table. We have family services,
Speaker:counseling supports, and churches. Oh my goodness. There's such a
Speaker:need, and this is what got me to quit my job to start this. There
Speaker:is such a place and a need for the church to wrap
Speaker:around families and individuals going through hardship,
Speaker:not in a fix it way, but as part of the solution.
Speaker:And just being in community, that is a wraparound
Speaker:support and how we serve people in a
Speaker:comprehensive way in collaboration with the
Speaker:whole community. There you have it. Wraparound services.
Speaker:Hey. If you got a term that you would like us to decode, jump
Speaker:in on the Care Impact podcast group on Facebook. In the show notes,
Speaker:the link, you'll find it there. Or head over to our website,
Speaker:CareImpact.ca/podcast and send us a message. You can do audio
Speaker:message, text message, all that stuff. Thank you for
Speaker:tuning in everyone. Thank you for sharing the episodes. That's
Speaker:how we grow the podcast. That's the best way is word-of-mouth. Keep
Speaker:sharing with friends and family, and let's get those conversations going at the
Speaker:table. And always remember to stay curious.
Speaker:Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on
Speaker:weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our
Speaker:community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact
Speaker:on Facebook and Instagram, or just check the show notes for these
Speaker:links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts,
Speaker:leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in
Speaker:faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a
Speaker:meaningful impact.
