Sheltered by Similarity | How to Tell if You're in a Bubble with Shannon and David Steeves
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Description
Episode 5 in our Cost of Indifference Series
Could the comfort found in like-minded communities actually be what's holding us back?
In today's conversation on Journey With Care, hosts Johan Heinrichs and Wendi Park are joined by Shannon and David Steeves to explore the potential pitfalls of echo chambers in faith communities. Johan reflects on his past experiences within a close church group that, while fostering belonging, also inadvertently created a limiting bubble. Shannon and David bring their perspectives as a couple from diverse cultural backgrounds, sharing insights from their marriage and personal journeys. They discuss how embracing diverse perspectives can foster deeper empathy and richer connections in church communities.
Time Stamps
[06:15] Cultural Journey from Istanbul to Canada
[10:09] Adjusting to Life in Canada
[12:39] Understanding Reactions and Sensitivities
[17:09] Church Leadership and Cultural Impact
[20:40] Embracing Diversity Requires Intentionality
[23:01] Navigating Power Dynamics in Church
[30:14] Proximity and Understanding Matter
[32:52] The Cost of Indifference
[35:21] Overcoming Main Character Syndrome
[36:30] Care Lingo: Microagressions
Guest Links
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@davidandrewsteeves
@shannonleesteeves
Other Links
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Transcript
Like, we have to adapt. Like, there's not just
Speaker:one specific way to serve people. Yeah. There's
Speaker:not just one specific way to decide on
Speaker:people. I think when you're you're doing that, you're limiting
Speaker:yourself. It's so important to meet people where
Speaker:they're at. Yeah. The way we do that is is is just relationships.
Speaker:This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious
Speaker:Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life
Speaker:stories and honest conversations.
Speaker:What if the very comfort we find in like minded communities
Speaker:is also what blinds us to the full richness of faith and
Speaker:understanding? This question struck me deeply as I
Speaker:considered my own journey. How often have we mistaken comfort
Speaker:for growth only to realize that embracing diversity and faith in
Speaker:life enriches our own walk with Jesus and broadens our horizons?
Speaker:I was part of a vibrant church community that felt unstoppable.
Speaker:We were full of passion diving to the teachings of speakers and
Speaker:influences within our church expression. After Sunday services, we'd go
Speaker:to a restaurant. We'd sit for hours, dissecting sermons, creating our
Speaker:own teaching sessions, and bouncing ideas off one another back and forth.
Speaker:It was energizing and exciting. We thought we were building
Speaker:something unshakable, totally different from anyone else, a
Speaker:foundation of truth and purpose. Reflecting now,
Speaker:I see both the strength and limitations of that time. That community
Speaker:had provided us with certainty and a strong sense of belonging, and
Speaker:we pursued our faith with undeniable passion. However,
Speaker:we were also inadvertently building a bubble, one that was comfortable,
Speaker:reassuring, but ultimately restrictive. Over time, it became
Speaker:clear that this bubble was not just keeping us from growing, it was also
Speaker:keeping others out. My perspective began to shift when I
Speaker:realized that we weren't as special or unique as I had once felt.
Speaker:This realization came not from a place of disillusionment, but from an
Speaker:understanding that there was a richness and diversity that we were missing.
Speaker:I started to listen more to stories and experiences from outside our
Speaker:bubble. Each story was a revelation, showing me that different
Speaker:church experiences and walks with Jesus were not wrong, but
Speaker:essential. I needed these diverse perspectives to grow,
Speaker:not just intellectually, but in my relationship with Jesus.
Speaker:Now the bubble didn't burst all at once. It deflated slowly
Speaker:with each new conversation, every story that challenged my assumptions
Speaker:about what it meant to follow Christ. I began to rebuild,
Speaker:not just what I believe, but how I approach people. This wasn't
Speaker:about abandoning the passion of my early communities, but
Speaker:about enriching that passion with the voices of others who'd walk
Speaker:different paths. Looking back, I cherish the passion and purpose of that
Speaker:early community, but I also embrace the lessons learned from stepping
Speaker:outside that comfort zone. Today, we explore how echo
Speaker:chambers limit empathy and how embracing diverse perspectives
Speaker:leads to deeper, richer connections. Joining us
Speaker:today are Shannon and David Steeves, newlyweds from diverse
Speaker:cultural backgrounds demonstrating the power of unity in diversity.
Speaker:Shannon serves as the regional manager at Care Impact here in Winnipeg,
Speaker:facilitating deep conversations between churches and communities.
Speaker:David is the next generation pastor at Rose Church here in Winnipeg,
Speaker:nurturing young people's faith across diverse cultures.
Speaker:Together, they'll how diverse experiences can enrich faith and
Speaker:fellowship, also bringing in some of their marriage experience. We're excited
Speaker:to learn from their journey today. But, Wendy, I'm gonna hand it over to you
Speaker:now to get our conversation started. Alright. David and Shannon,
Speaker:so good to have you here. But before we dive in, I just wanna ask
Speaker:you kind of a random crazy question, but if you could instantly pick
Speaker:up a new skill or hobby without practicing, what would it
Speaker:be? Oh. Oh, I know mine.
Speaker:I I'm a grandma at heart, so I think mine
Speaker:would have to be, like, knitting or crocheting, something where I can just, like,
Speaker:sit and just Okay. Chat with the ladies, you know?
Speaker:I think carpentry. Oh. Wow. Jesus
Speaker:was a carpenter. Okay. I just wanna walk in his footsteps. Right.
Speaker:Right. No. But I I mean, imagine just being able to
Speaker:build a house. Mhmm. Just boom. You know? Yeah. What what
Speaker:would you build? A house and a barn and
Speaker:a garage. Oh my gosh. So we're gonna have a farm?
Speaker:Something like that. That could be fun. Well, I met so I did my internship
Speaker:in Tallahassee, Florida. Right? And I stayed with this
Speaker:couple, and this man showed me this
Speaker:barn that he built. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, we can do
Speaker:that. Some of us, humans,
Speaker:could go out and just build barns. Yeah. Well, David,
Speaker:it sounds like we wanna be neighbors with you and
Speaker:Shannon because I don't I don't have any carpentry skills in
Speaker:our in our family, and we could sure use some some instant skills like
Speaker:that. The thing with barns
Speaker:is Yeah. Anything that lives in a barn, they all end up smelling the same,
Speaker:and it's pretty bad, which brings us into, our
Speaker:conversation about Good segue. Good segue. Being in
Speaker:an echo chamber or a bubble. When do you wanna kick us
Speaker:off with, our conversation here? That's true. Yeah. In our series, we
Speaker:we are looking at the cost of indifference, and one of the things we're looking
Speaker:at is essentially echo chambers and
Speaker:and being internal and just listening to
Speaker:similar voices and maybe not having as
Speaker:much diversity into our conversations, into our
Speaker:thought life, that may challenge us, and it's easier
Speaker:to stay within. Now just in
Speaker:obvious form, you have to tell us a little bit. You don't look
Speaker:alike, and you have worked through some of this reason
Speaker:we've asked you into this story. Tell me a bit of your journeys
Speaker:into thinking outside the box, going outside
Speaker:your barn, so to speak in life. That was great.
Speaker:Yeah. So I I was born in
Speaker:Istanbul, Turkey. So that throws a little bit of spice
Speaker:into all of this. But, born
Speaker:to a Ethiopian mother, Nigerian dad,
Speaker:lived six years there. Me and my mom came here to Canada.
Speaker:My mom was, like, culturally, just
Speaker:Africans just in general, especially coming into a new
Speaker:country, they're trying to find folks that look like
Speaker:them, speak like them, cook like them, dress like them.
Speaker:But actually, my mom was really just,
Speaker:she was okay with not being familiar
Speaker:even since Istanbul and going to,
Speaker:a church that was predominantly, you know, Europeans and,
Speaker:you know, Middle Eastern folks. And so coming here, she
Speaker:didn't, like, find an Ethiopian church right away. We were actually connected
Speaker:with this this other church that was predominantly had
Speaker:a lot of Caucasian Canadians, and, you know, and so,
Speaker:like, right away, like, my mom was like, hey, be proud of
Speaker:your culture, the color of your skin, but,
Speaker:like, we didn't chase familiarity. And so that kinda
Speaker:just, like, I was always kinda, like,
Speaker:making friends with other folks that look different.
Speaker:And, you know, even going to school
Speaker:outside of Canada and going to The
Speaker:US and, you know, that was a part of just that journey and that
Speaker:upbringing. So you were raised global boy,
Speaker:and I'm curious. And and it's really neat to hear how your mom
Speaker:instilled that and gave you permission to be yourself, but
Speaker:also you were exposed from an early age to so many cultures.
Speaker:And then coming to Canada, which is, like, maybe your fourth culture
Speaker:kid kind of a thing, it's not your first, second, or third. Was
Speaker:there a time as you were growing up here in Canada where
Speaker:you had to discover your own identity,
Speaker:understand your own Imago Dei ness in your own ethnicity in
Speaker:Canada makes sense? What was that like? Yeah.
Speaker:So my two aunties
Speaker:came when I was around eight years old. So I grew up with my
Speaker:mom, in Turkey, Six Years, came here for two,
Speaker:three years. It was just me and my mom. Then my
Speaker:two aunties came, and so it was
Speaker:three Ethiopian women, you know what I'm saying, who
Speaker:grew up in, there was like barely any English being
Speaker:spoken in our home, and
Speaker:so, like, really learning the culture Mhmm.
Speaker:Helped me learn who I was, and in
Speaker:return, I became proud of that. And you really got boot
Speaker:camp on how to treat women, didn't you? And no wonder you're happily married. Shannon,
Speaker:I'd love to hear a bit of your story, happily married. Shannon, I'd love to
Speaker:hear a bit of your story because you also you were actually newer to Canada
Speaker:than your husband. Tell us a little bit. And and now with all the
Speaker:politics, we're not gonna go there. But at the same time, you guys are
Speaker:a a living miracle here. Go go share us a little bit of hope
Speaker:here. Yeah. Well, my journey here is not quite as
Speaker:interesting. But I was born and raised in
Speaker:Southeast Minnesota. And as I thought about this conversation, I was
Speaker:like, man, I really did spend a lot of time with
Speaker:people who look just like me. And
Speaker:and yeah. So just, like, thinking back, man, since I was a kid,
Speaker:that that definitely shaped my worldview. It
Speaker:shaped just my kind of initial impressions of
Speaker:people and having to kinda examine that as I've gotten older.
Speaker:And then moved to North Dakota for college, and that's where
Speaker:we met. And then I spent a little bit of time in Tennessee.
Speaker:So going down south, that was a different vibe. And
Speaker:then, yeah, just in the last, like, nine months or
Speaker:so, moved to Canada to marry him.
Speaker:And, yeah, that has probably been, like, the
Speaker:biggest just pushing me out of my comfort zone moving
Speaker:here. It's like there's so many similarities, but then
Speaker:the things that are different, you're like, oh, yeah. That is different.
Speaker:Especially when it comes to faith and politics
Speaker:and even the kind of the presence and the influence of
Speaker:churches in Canada, feeling a lot of that difference and learning
Speaker:about that has been a learning curve for sure.
Speaker:So now you're married. Congratulations. You're a
Speaker:few months into this marriage. What are some of the surprises,
Speaker:even through your dating and new married life? Maybe
Speaker:it's too much on the hot seat here, but share share as much as you'd
Speaker:like. Because I know, like, I'm in a cross cultural marriage as
Speaker:well. Yeah. My husband came here from another country. And so there's some things
Speaker:that we assume are very similar because we all speak English. Right. But what are
Speaker:the some of the things, the nuances that you're realizing, oh, I just
Speaker:thought this is the way it is in in living up my faith
Speaker:and in my day to day that when you're
Speaker:with each other, that you're realizing having to
Speaker:reconsider your assumptions. Yeah. I think
Speaker:one thing maybe I feel like communication style
Speaker:sometimes. Mhmm. I grew up
Speaker:where it was like communication styles,
Speaker:just like the lingo and, like, the casualness,
Speaker:even the the banter type jargon
Speaker:Yeah. Kind of bringing that here. Like, are we
Speaker:good? Are we are we mad? Are we happy? Right. Like, I often thought he
Speaker:was mad at me Yeah. And he wasn't. Yeah. This is like is this
Speaker:a joyful conversation? Is this and so, like, we had to learn,
Speaker:like, I I honestly was like, okay. I need to
Speaker:pivot and be like, hey. This
Speaker:is what I've learned. Mhmm. This is this comes from me just,
Speaker:like, just in my circles and being used to that. Yeah. But
Speaker:knowing that, you know, I wanna love you the best that I can. Mhmm.
Speaker:Communicate in a way that's, like Right. You know, what
Speaker:I'm relaying the message that I want to you to know.
Speaker:Mhmm. You know what I'm saying? And vice versa. And vice versa. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker:Because as we're, like, in the moment realizing,
Speaker:oh, this is, like, I'm feeling a type of way because of how you
Speaker:communicated, or what how your tone was, or whatever it might be. Then,
Speaker:like, on the flip side, there's a level of, like, me
Speaker:acknowledging my own sensitivities and acknowledging, you know,
Speaker:obviously so much of how we act is based on what we saw growing up
Speaker:or what was modeled for us. Mhmm. And so just because
Speaker:it's different, doesn't mean it's bad. It's bad. And that Weird. Or
Speaker:weird or wrong. Yeah. And that yeah. I'd say
Speaker:that's a a huge thing that we have we've learned Yeah.
Speaker:Especially in the beginning. For sure. Yeah. Sometimes I think
Speaker:about, like, hospitality wise. Like, we
Speaker:both are very people people,
Speaker:and we love hosting. But I think Ethiopian hospitality is,
Speaker:like, another level. Mhmm. I don't know. Is this landing with you? Like, do you
Speaker:think that that's kind of something Yeah. We've learned I think
Speaker:there is a specific
Speaker:style Mhmm. In hosting people in
Speaker:Ethiopian households. It's like and it could be perceived
Speaker:as not rude. Because what I'm
Speaker:thinking of is, like yeah. Yeah. What I'm more Bring the real, really Yeah.
Speaker:Tools. Like, something as simple as and this might not be related
Speaker:really to, like, culture. But I think of a simple example. A couple weeks ago,
Speaker:we were hosting people, and I, like, didn't really care about
Speaker:what dish we used to put some food in. Mhmm. And you're like, no.
Speaker:That's kinda like it was like a Mhmm. A mixing bowl, you
Speaker:know? And he's like, no. Let's use, like, a actual Yeah. Decent looking
Speaker:bowl. And I'm like, I don't really care. But for you and for your
Speaker:like, that culture growing up, it's like, no. We're gonna give the highest level
Speaker:of service and and care. Really. Pulled out the the like, my
Speaker:auntie, when I was home, she had four or five
Speaker:bowls Yeah. That were in the top left right corner in the
Speaker:back of Right. A compartment that you didn't know existed
Speaker:Yeah. Until guests came. Right. And I'm like, we can just use the
Speaker:Pyrex. Like, it's Yeah. We're
Speaker:realizing, like, I don't know. Of things like that. Yeah. Then, again, it's not bad.
Speaker:It's just different. Well, I love what I'm hearing here. Even you're
Speaker:just doing it live right in front of me. I'm seeing echo
Speaker:chambers, assumptions, our baselines are are colliding in
Speaker:each other and not in a way that one is right or one is wrong.
Speaker:There's a mutuality about this conversation you're you're so vulnerably sharing
Speaker:with me. And you're you're right, David and Shannon. I I can
Speaker:identify it. I have Ethiopian relatives. My sister, she brings it next
Speaker:level. When I'm I'm part of Ethiopian weddings and
Speaker:just hospitality, it's just like, I learned so much from
Speaker:it. I'm curious through this, even just
Speaker:through your marriage, and and you've had many different cultural experiences moving
Speaker:to Canada and everything for both of you. How has that enriched? How
Speaker:has that made you a better person? How has that made you more
Speaker:faithful to Christ and refined you
Speaker:as you've had these collisions? And not being wrong or right, but how
Speaker:has that impacted your growth? It has really
Speaker:revealed to me, especially we just did a marriage conference at our
Speaker:church, and so this is really on my mind there too. But it
Speaker:really revealed to me how selfish we are as
Speaker:people that we really make
Speaker:decisions in our best interest. Mhmm.
Speaker:And it really takes a lot of effort to kinda
Speaker:humble ourselves and be like, oh, okay. My way isn't
Speaker:necessarily the right way. Mhmm. Or while I believe it is true,
Speaker:other people believe differently. Mhmm. And there can be space for me to
Speaker:acknowledge that. I just think about, you know, we're only six, seven
Speaker:months into this. But now I get why people always
Speaker:said in marriage, like, it really reveals that part of you
Speaker:that's, like, we wanna do what we wanna do. Mhmm. And
Speaker:Yeah. I get now how, like, marriage is such this, like, picture
Speaker:of process, I guess, of sanctification. It's like, okay,
Speaker:every day, like, I'm laying myself down Yeah. And
Speaker:putting you ahead of my own needs and vice
Speaker:versa, like that mutual submission. And it doesn't
Speaker:happen, like, naturally. I guess that's what you like, I have to
Speaker:think about is my default setting is not to, like,
Speaker:put your needs first. Mhmm. I wish it were, and I want it to be.
Speaker:And that's not different from what we are called to as a church to lay
Speaker:down our lives for each other. Right? And so, David, you are
Speaker:a pastor in a church. Shannon, you are on our team doing amazing
Speaker:things in in the city of Winnipeg with the care portal, working with
Speaker:churches. Now let's put that into a context of leadership in
Speaker:churches. Leaders that are one culture, how would that
Speaker:impact how we're cared for, how we provide a hospitality?
Speaker:We're friendly or we love this because it comes out of one lens. It's not
Speaker:necessarily wrong. It's not a morality issue. Let's
Speaker:talk to that. What does it look like for us
Speaker:to have one singular cultural lens through our
Speaker:leadership? I think we like, we have to adapt. Like,
Speaker:there's not just one specific way to
Speaker:serve people. Yeah. There's not just one specific way
Speaker:to disciple people. I think when you're you're
Speaker:doing that, you're limiting yourself. It's so important to
Speaker:meet people where they're at. Yeah. The way we do that is is
Speaker:is just relationships. Mhmm. Making sure that
Speaker:within the church, we're going out of our our
Speaker:circles and building relationships with people in the
Speaker:church that don't fit that, you
Speaker:know, one Yeah. Like, Canadian like, hey. You know, this
Speaker:one. Yeah. But it's like, man, have relationships, learn,
Speaker:and then use that knowledge into, you know,
Speaker:creating systems and how to create certain conversations and
Speaker:how to ultimately disciple Mhmm.
Speaker:A multitude of people. And and so I think it's it's very
Speaker:important, I think, for for leadership to have
Speaker:relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think as as
Speaker:you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, some of the conversations I've had with church
Speaker:leaders is, like, I think a lot of it starts with vision.
Speaker:Right. It's, like, coming before the Lord and asking him, okay, what's your
Speaker:vision Right. For this community, for this church?
Speaker:And then putting those key people in those places
Speaker:to help carry that out. Like, if our vision is to reach the
Speaker:city city of Winnipeg, like, okay, that's our vision. How are we
Speaker:gonna accomplish this? Like, we can't have just one
Speaker:singular demographic in all the roles. Right. All the roles. Yeah.
Speaker:Like, because they can't necessarily speak or relate the same way
Speaker:to be all things to all people. You know? Like, thank God that we're
Speaker:not because that would be too much. But I think you have to
Speaker:acknowledge that and then put in the, you know, that work, that effort
Speaker:to look for those people that God wants to bring in. I don't know. Does
Speaker:that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it does definitely ultimately
Speaker:start with vision. Mhmm. Yeah. I
Speaker:think humans are just we're just we're prone
Speaker:to chasing comfortability Yeah. Yeah. That
Speaker:makes its way in the church. And so it's Yeah. You're always,
Speaker:like, you're breaking against that. Like, Christianity in itself
Speaker:walking with Christ is going against the grain, and so Mhmm. That has
Speaker:to be a part of leadership in church. Be
Speaker:uncomfortable. Yeah. Right? Have those conversations
Speaker:with people. Build those relationships. Obviously, ultimately, go to God
Speaker:Mhmm. For that vision. Mhmm. But, like, people need to be reached,
Speaker:and so that doesn't just stop with, English
Speaker:speaking folks. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. No. There's a lot of good things that, you've touched upon
Speaker:and having that vision for something more than
Speaker:recreating myself in others. Is it we're not looking for the image
Speaker:of me in others and how they should love it love, to
Speaker:worship like me or or act like me, but looking at who
Speaker:is god in the other person. But then you you touched
Speaker:on something else that I'd like to to put a finger on is
Speaker:that it takes intentionality. There's some effort involved, and I
Speaker:wonder if that is one of the barriers that prevents us be from
Speaker:embracing diversity more. I talk with leaders, like, my family is
Speaker:very diverse. I'm the only white girl around the table, but people say, oh,
Speaker:that's diverse. Well, not really if we're not sharing that
Speaker:power. Not really if we're not honoring
Speaker:people's culture and what they bring, and and it's not even just like, oh,
Speaker:you're Ethiopian, so you must be like so and so. You have
Speaker:a unique story that came from Istanbul, and so each person
Speaker:comes with similar threads and fabric,
Speaker:but unique but it takes intentionality. And
Speaker:do you think that we have
Speaker:become indifferent possibly simply because it's
Speaker:just easier to do it our way
Speaker:than embrace potential rifts or
Speaker:storming things out and figuring things out together? I
Speaker:think before you even asked that question, I was, like, thinking about how, you know,
Speaker:all of what we're saying is well and good. But, like, in practice,
Speaker:it can be messy. Oh, so messy. And so I think that, like, really gets
Speaker:to your point is, like, yeah. It really is a lot
Speaker:easier to exist within, you
Speaker:know, our familiar culture, our familiar demographic, our familiar
Speaker:upbringing. Mhmm. And it's a lot harder
Speaker:to kind of, like, reach across the table and be
Speaker:like, okay. Like, what's your story? Like, I I wanna learn from you.
Speaker:Yeah. And then maybe if it's, like, something that's hard to hear, it's like,
Speaker:okay. Yeah. You know, we have to grow in that, emotional
Speaker:maturity, I think, to to be willing to listen.
Speaker:Totally. And I this like, I say that from a place of, like, ongoing learning.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. Not that I've arrived because it is
Speaker:ongoing. Yeah. Totally. Well and it takes the
Speaker:pressure off. When you posture it that way, it takes the pressure off of having
Speaker:to these are the steps to being diverse. These are the steps
Speaker:to not being insular in your thinking. It really requires
Speaker:just leaning in and listening and being responsive to the
Speaker:holy spirit, needing God to give us revelation, needing
Speaker:God to give us inspiration on how do we love each other
Speaker:well and what does it mean to follow you in this? It's
Speaker:not how to do church so that we're not in an echo
Speaker:chamber. It's what does it mean to be faithful and
Speaker:to worship together with shared power.
Speaker:Let's talk on power dynamics within
Speaker:church, within a diverse setting. How do you work
Speaker:through those things? It could be ethnic
Speaker:diversity or gender or things like that. Not I'm not
Speaker:talking about that we should have a power struggle, but I'm
Speaker:sure you've experienced times where there is a power
Speaker:dynamic that people don't even realize they have. They hold the assumed
Speaker:power. Yeah. Tell me a little bit of those experiences when you
Speaker:haven't necessarily been that person. What does it feel like
Speaker:to not be that person with the assumed
Speaker:Yeah. Coming in to ministry
Speaker:mean being young. Mhmm. You know, the youngest
Speaker:like a young black boy, and, you know, had the opportunity
Speaker:and the privilege to oversee a team
Speaker:that had predominantly a lot of older folks.
Speaker:Right? So there's older people. You know, they're
Speaker:established. They've got families. Mhmm. And I'm like, okay.
Speaker:How do I delegate? You know? Yeah. So it's like I'm working
Speaker:through leadership, but then also, like,
Speaker:when we're walking into a meeting, how do I hey. I'm
Speaker:leading this meeting. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, the words I'm
Speaker:saying is important. This agenda is so I'm working through, like,
Speaker:hey, David. Like, you have that confidence. Mhmm. You
Speaker:know, you're here on purpose. And so I think that's, like, a a
Speaker:continued thing for sure. Yeah. I would say so.
Speaker:Really more, like, internally, have to make sure that
Speaker:I'm walking in confidently, but knowing the truth
Speaker:of God. Mhmm. And but, yeah, there's certain moments
Speaker:that's, like, David's the baby, you know. And so
Speaker:it's it's it's the youngest the youngest in the office.
Speaker:And so it's like but I think I've made sure
Speaker:that I'm quick to listen, but also I'm afraid to
Speaker:speak confidently Mhmm. As well. I have
Speaker:a a totally candid question, and feel free to answer how you like it.
Speaker:Not necessarily specific in today's moment, but do you ever feel
Speaker:you said that the young black boy Yeah. In the room. Do you
Speaker:ever feel in order to be heard, you have to act
Speaker:more white? You know, feel,
Speaker:yes. Is that truth? No. But it's
Speaker:funny, because, like, when you say
Speaker:white in my head okay. So let me
Speaker:go back to a in 2019, I was playing football in
Speaker:BC. I was getting interviewed. It was like a
Speaker:preseason interview. It was really exciting. And so this reporter was
Speaker:giving me questions and, you know, I was answering. And he's
Speaker:like, man, you're really, like you know how to
Speaker:articulate. And I was like No. I don't I
Speaker:don't think you know how that sounded. Right? So I think, like,
Speaker:you know, when folks say, like, more white, I
Speaker:think it's, like, being more articulate and more,
Speaker:you know, profound or more you know what I'm saying? And
Speaker:so I'm, like, when in my own circles, like, bro,
Speaker:you sound you sound all white. I'm like, bro, that's not
Speaker:being white. That's just being able to speak. Right?
Speaker:Having diction. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I
Speaker:know when I walk into a room
Speaker:knowing what I'm about to say,
Speaker:I've downloaded this information. I've taken the time to research.
Speaker:Like, I know what I'm saying, and I know how to articulate my thoughts and
Speaker:vision. I know I'll be heard. Yeah. No. I think that that's
Speaker:so good. And there in in in those
Speaker:friction moments, if you call it that, are education
Speaker:moments that people need to lean in and
Speaker:realize we need to take people at face value. But
Speaker:I know different friends of mine of different ethnicities
Speaker:will say sometimes their struggle in their workplace
Speaker:or in in society, some of those struggles, those assumptions that are thrown their
Speaker:way, passive aggressive, microaggressions.
Speaker:And it happens within the church, but we don't always realize it because we're
Speaker:friendly, we're nice. Like, those microaggressions,
Speaker:maybe we can talk a little bit about that because microaggressions
Speaker:happen within echo chambers, happen when we're not
Speaker:challenging status quo or correcting or or changing those
Speaker:things. It doesn't mean people are bad, but it we're rubbing into
Speaker:we're bumping into those assumptions, those false assumptions.
Speaker:What would you say to doesn't matter who in the church,
Speaker:about microaggressions. How would we be able to correct that
Speaker:or edify the church as we bump into each
Speaker:other and and be human to human? How do we address microaggressions
Speaker:so we can truly love each other? It begins
Speaker:with a relationship. It's really like living life on purpose.
Speaker:So we're Christian and we're like we're walking with Christ and
Speaker:we're constantly dying to ourselves and constantly
Speaker:being refined. And Mhmm. I think a part of that
Speaker:is being aware and discerning. Like,
Speaker:I've always had that thought. Mhmm. Is that right? I mean,
Speaker:I have a different perspective Yes. Yes. From where I'm at. But
Speaker:I think for me, when I've been trying to work on that in myself
Speaker:is just like we were talking about earlier, is, like, having the
Speaker:humility to recognize that, like, we're not always
Speaker:right. Yeah. And that's how our experiences have shaped
Speaker:our world view and acknowledging that.
Speaker:It's like, oh, okay. Now that I, like, see that, I can, like, be
Speaker:willing and open to, like, see it a different way. Or for someone to
Speaker:share their experience and be like, oh, I've never I've never had to
Speaker:think about that way. Mhmm. No one's ever told me you're so articulate, and I,
Speaker:like, all I said was thank you. Because I was like, oh, thanks. Like Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, acknowledging that, like, oh, that's a different
Speaker:experience Mhmm. That he had than I. And
Speaker:there's, like, reasons for that. And Yeah. Yeah. Just, like, in making that acknowledgement, I
Speaker:think Mhmm. Like you said, it comes down to being in relationship with one another
Speaker:Yeah. And being willing to ask the
Speaker:questions. Mhmm. It's like, oh, can you know, like, what has that been like for
Speaker:you? Right. You know, in relationship with one of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:I really appreciate your response in that because, yeah, you're right.
Speaker:Proximity does matter. When we are removed and we
Speaker:objectify, we could even do that in politics, and we're like, we can't
Speaker:like Americans. And, Shannon, we love you. If you
Speaker:only got to know Shannon, who wouldn't? Because you you
Speaker:are an image bearer. You do carry, the the heart
Speaker:of Christ in that. And we could say that for x, y, and z,
Speaker:the things we see on the news, the things we read, the things we assume,
Speaker:things we are inherited for myself as a settler, things I don't
Speaker:even question because I have inherited certain things, and I hope
Speaker:we we've evolved and educated more and become less,
Speaker:like, racially divided and things like that. I I would
Speaker:like to think that, but we're still working those things out. And and what
Speaker:you've identified, both of you, in your stories is that proximity matters when we get
Speaker:to know people. Yeah. And
Speaker:opportunity to correct or confront with
Speaker:love. We we can actually be in those moments. We're not just assaulting, saying,
Speaker:how dare you do this? And that. We're not gonna actually help create
Speaker:change. But when we can sit and have coffee together Yeah. And
Speaker:say, well, this is what I'm thinking. This is what you're thinking. We we glean
Speaker:so much from each other in proximity. However,
Speaker:here's the however part. That's not always comfortable. Right? It
Speaker:means putting ourselves out there, like you said, Shannon, being vulnerable. What
Speaker:are some ways that you could suggest our listeners steps they
Speaker:can take? Maybe they are taking different steps. I would love to hear from our
Speaker:listeners. But what are some ways that have helped you
Speaker:and those in your community get closer and work
Speaker:through things in doing life together? Hello? You see? I have one.
Speaker:Yeah. Less of, like, a a relational personal
Speaker:thing, but it's something that I've done over the last few years that I found
Speaker:to be helpful. I spent a lot of time on social media. Mhmm. I'm not
Speaker:saying that that's a good thing. Mhmm. But I've challenged myself
Speaker:to follow people that I know don't necessarily
Speaker:think or view the world the same way I do. Mhmm.
Speaker:And it's helped me think about things from a different perspective.
Speaker:It's helped me understand why I believe what I believe.
Speaker:Mhmm. It's helped me be open minded on those things that are
Speaker:not like, you know, the non negotiables, those other other
Speaker:things. Mhmm. Yeah. And just challenged me to, like, just think
Speaker:about it from a different perspective. Because if I'm
Speaker:all the content I'm consuming, if it's always just this, like,
Speaker:exactly what I wanna hear Mhmm. Like, where's the learning? Yeah. Where's the
Speaker:growth? Yeah. Where's the critical thinking? Yeah. Like, what
Speaker:is the what is the cost? Like, just like this this title of the season,
Speaker:the cost of indifference. Like, I think about what am I
Speaker:missing by not taking that step to learn to
Speaker:grow from someone else? Mhmm. You know, even if it's not gonna be that I'm
Speaker:gonna change my opinion on something, I just think about, like, what
Speaker:relationships am I missing out on? What growth am I missing out
Speaker:on? And it's really helped me just in my empathy.
Speaker:Like, you know, this person has a really strong opinion about x y z.
Speaker:And even if I don't agree with it or, you know, whatever, I can see
Speaker:where they're coming from. And thank you, Lord, for
Speaker:Mhmm. You know, giving us this opportunity to learn from each other.
Speaker:Yeah. I think, that would be good. I think,
Speaker:one for me for sure is just
Speaker:listening. Mhmm. Just, like,
Speaker:closing my mouth and listening
Speaker:and seeing people's hearts
Speaker:Mhmm. And noticing their just their tone
Speaker:Mhmm. And where like, in live action,
Speaker:seeing where they're coming from,
Speaker:you begin to realize, like, oh, I wanna say a thing
Speaker:there. Mhmm. Oh, I wanna say a thing there. Mhmm. Oh, why do I wanna
Speaker:say and you begin searching yourself. It's a tool that's like, wow.
Speaker:This is just being quiet helps me Mhmm.
Speaker:Grow because I notice where my
Speaker:responses are coming from. Whether it's like, oh, I wanna defend this
Speaker:thing. Oh, wait. No. They're just explaining their POV.
Speaker:Right? I don't need to, like, put up, like, no, you shouldn't have said,
Speaker:right? It's just like sitting and listening,
Speaker:and at the end, almost all the time, I have
Speaker:a very different way of, like, communicating
Speaker:after, like, sitting down and listening. And so I'm like,
Speaker:man, I I learn a lot about who I am, what
Speaker:type of defenses I have, and and what things kinda
Speaker:like, whether it's an insecurity or what, all the different things that
Speaker:kinda flare up from sitting and listening to people
Speaker:talk. Yeah. I heard this great quote that I cannot take credit
Speaker:for, this past weekend. The opposite of
Speaker:love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness.
Speaker:Mhmm. And I was like, woah. It's true. In our
Speaker:household, we have this saying MCS. Oh, you're
Speaker:dealing with some MCS. It's main character syndrome when we wanna
Speaker:always see ourselves as the main character and everything else revolves around
Speaker:us. And I think that can often be the case within
Speaker:Christian settings, and it takes some intentionality
Speaker:to get over ourselves and listen to diversity, even things
Speaker:that we can't agree on. But it's a muscle that needs to be
Speaker:developed, and you're right. I love that you brought up the security issue.
Speaker:Secure believers, secure churches, it's not a
Speaker:security on I've got the dogma. I've got the the corner on God's theology
Speaker:so much as I'm securing Christ in the wonder, in
Speaker:the mysteries of working out our salvation and understanding who God is,
Speaker:which will be a lifelong eternal thing.
Speaker:There's room for all of us at this table, and it's not
Speaker:up to us to to have the reservation list of who gets their word
Speaker:in. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I think we're gonna end it there. Thank
Speaker:you so much, guys, for coming on. You lots to chew on. We're
Speaker:gonna hit up our segment now. It's time for
Speaker:Care lingo. I'm gonna throw an
Speaker:audible here. We had a I had a word lined up here for today, but
Speaker:I think we're gonna do a different one because I heard it mentioned a few
Speaker:minutes ago. And I'm like, let's let's roll with that one.
Speaker:We're gonna use the word microaggressions. Now, when
Speaker:I first heard this term, you know, it's it's those tiny
Speaker:things that just drive you nuts. It's those crumbs that
Speaker:fall off your sandwich and get stuck in your keyboard.
Speaker:Micro things that cause you to be angry or aggressive.
Speaker:You know, it's that wedgie. It's like, oh. Or
Speaker:or that dripping tap at nighttime when you
Speaker:sleep. David Shannon, I don't know if you guys have any microaggressions like
Speaker:that. What are your microaggressions if if you're going off my
Speaker:definition here? Going off of your definition, oh,
Speaker:it would be when David puts the dishes in the sink instead of in
Speaker:the dishwasher. Oh, newlywed problems. Yeah.
Speaker:Newlywed problems. But I have equally as many. Yeah. So I'll raise my
Speaker:hand for that. I'll be the first to say I do as well. No. Sure.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be going off of that definition for
Speaker:sure. You got a rebuttal? I was you know what's crazy? I wasn't
Speaker:even gonna, like, use a marriage microaggression.
Speaker:Sorry. I wonder Which is so crazy. So
Speaker:that's fine, though. I'll take it. Microaggression.
Speaker:Goodness gracious, Murphy. Paper straws. Oh,
Speaker:yeah. It's the it's it's really the only thing about
Speaker:Canada that you don't like. Somebody paper straws. Yes. In that
Speaker:group yesterday, somebody brought Kool Aid jammers, and, like, you can't
Speaker:even stab the thing open. True story. When I go to The US,
Speaker:for meetings and stuff, I pack my bags back with plastic
Speaker:straws at restaurants. I don't blame
Speaker:you. Okay, Wendy. What is a real microaggression? I don't think
Speaker:that was the correct definition. So Yeah. Happy to share it. Microaggressions are
Speaker:actually something more subtle and often unintentional
Speaker:comments or behaviors that actually have convey
Speaker:actually an underlying prejudice or a discriminatory tone to
Speaker:it that we are often blinded to from our own
Speaker:experience. We don't mean it that way, but it's towards
Speaker:a marginalized group or towards an other, somebody that
Speaker:isn't like us. And so we might say slighted comments that
Speaker:come off wrong when you're you're the other person. They can
Speaker:often be something that's accumulated over time. They're uncontested,
Speaker:things that people will say, leading to feeling
Speaker:excluded or devalued. It's making
Speaker:the other people feel othered, when we say those
Speaker:things. Alright. Microaggressions. There you have it. Again,
Speaker:thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having us. You guys are great.
Speaker:So listeners, if this conversation resonated with you or made you think of
Speaker:someone that would benefit from this conversation, I encourage you to share
Speaker:it with them. That's how we're gonna grow the podcast. And, hey, remember, you can
Speaker:join us on our Care Impact Facebook. We have the Care Impact
Speaker:podcast group there where we have conversations with each other, the
Speaker:latest news, and you can even get your word in for the CareLingo
Speaker:segments once in a while. So we would love to have you join the conversation
Speaker:there as well. So until next time, remember to stay curious.
Speaker:Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on
Speaker:weekly episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our
Speaker:community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact
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Speaker:faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a
Speaker:meaningful impact.
