Episode 6

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Published on:

21st Mar 2025

Second Thoughts | Why Playing It Safe Won’t Change the World



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The Cost of Indifference Series: Episode 6

Previous episode: Sheltered by Similarity | How to Tell if You're in a Bubble with Shannon and David Steeves https://journey-with-care.captivate.fm/episode/s04e05/

Description

Is familiarity, not fear, what's holding us back from true change?

Wendi Park and Johan Heinrichs dive into this thought-provoking idea while reflecting on their conversation with David and Shannon Steeves. They discuss the richness that comes from stepping outside comfort zones and embracing diversity, drawing from Johan's personal experiences in culturally varied communities and Wendi's encounters in the Middle East. The conversation challenges listeners to break out of echo chambers and engage with different perspectives and communities, emphasizing that growth and love flourish through discomfort.

Time Stamps

[00:00] Confronting Cultural Insularity

[05:43] Celebrating Diversity and Unity

[08:07] Embracing Intentional Diversity

[11:54] Middle East Peace Mediation Journey

[15:19] Breaking Church Echo Chambers

[19:43] "The Jesus Way: Civil Discourse"

[21:09] Care Lingo TBRI

Other Links

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Transcript
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We can be with people that don't look like us, and we can even get

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accusations from others thinking, oh, look who she's associating or he's associating

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with. We can do that. That is the Jesus way. That

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is how we are going to see growth within the church. Because we're all

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in really big trouble if Jesus only served people he agreed

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with. Mhmm. This is Journey with

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Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find

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inspiration to love others well through real life stories and

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honest conversations.

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What if the biggest thing holding us back isn't fear, but

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familiarity? What if staying in our comfort zone

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keeps us from fully living out our faith? We're in our

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second thoughts episode, Wendy. We are having a conversation about our

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previous conversation with David and Shannon Steeves. After

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our talk, I kept coming back to this. What are we missing when we only

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surround ourselves with people who think like us, worship like us, or

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live like us? And maybe more importantly, how do we break out of those

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bubbles? So, you wanna kick off this conversation,

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our second thoughts episode, which if you're new to this podcast,

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we're reflecting on our previous conversation wanting to take the content a little bit

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deeper. Maybe having those conversations we can't have in front of our guests. I don't

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know. What a conversation it really

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was. David and Shannon were a delight to have. A young married couple,

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very diverse. Talk about bursting bubbles, getting out of comfort

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zones. Bubbles were popping all over in their story,

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Johan, in the way they found each other, as an

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American and Canadian, but David coming from two cultures

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prior, three cultures, and and you'll have to pick up their story to to catch

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the details. And Shannon and David, how they're working through their

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marriage, how they're working through denominationalism and

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different thoughts, and even Shannon as she's taken on a role on our

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team, crossing the the barriers between social services

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and the most vulnerable people in our city of Winnipeg and

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the local churches. We could pick on so many areas of

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their story to say, oh, that's what it means to step out of your

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comfort zone. But, Johan, what did you get out of it? It made me

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think a little bit about my upbringing. We moved from Saskatchewan to

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Winnipeg, and my dad actually pastored, I like to say,

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a Jamaican black church even though my dad's a white,

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Pentecostal evangelical guy. But our church mostly

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consisted of a black community. It brought us some of those thoughts,

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and even when they got into talking about their different church

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experiences, I thought about, hey, what are my church experiences and what

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are the things I've brought with me to the new church expressions and the new

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jobs that I've had. Just really sitting with that, it's like, what have I brought

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with me that I've changed, I've adjusted things I don't wanna keep, things

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I I wanna hold on to? Yeah. I think we often don't even

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realize how insular our thinking is

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until we've crossed different thresholds where we've had to stretch our

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own imagination for how life actually operates. Sharing my

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experience, I grew up white Mennonite, very

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isolated, monocultural, I would say, for the most

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part. But being introduced as a young child into different

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cultures but even still, I I was still the person in power.

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My culture dominated the the room. And it it's taken

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me on a journey when I was going in South America and Middle East and

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just being the minority, but still realizing I'm carrying

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a certain assigned power I didn't like. I felt discomforted by

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I was also assaulted day after day with things that annoyed me, and I

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didn't understand the culture to, now in my own

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family being the only white Mennonite cultured

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person around our table and still realizing

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there's still things within me that I need to confront.

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It's not to say that my upbringing is bad. I have a lot to

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add value into conversation, but realizing that

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my way isn't the only way. How about you, Johan? My

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thinking is different. I can't go back to that girl that was five years old

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in Altona, Manitoba in kindergarten. I I can't be

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that person anymore. Because when you enter into different

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cultures, entered into different denominations, and things like that,

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it changes you, I would like to say for the better.

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What what are your thoughts, going through different cultural experiences?

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Yeah. I mean, again, when we were in Saskatchewan, my dad was pastoring

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an indigenous church. So most of our community was indigenous. It wasn't officially

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indigenous, but that's the people that he had. And then we moved to Winnipeg, and

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it was a Jamaican church. So two very different cultural

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expressions with my white dad pastoring. So

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I I grew up with different cultural experiences and, like, even

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when David talked about I think about these different cultural experiences and I

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want to learn from each of them and bring the

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good with me. Just realizing that

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that Christianity, the kingdom isn't a Western

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religion that we've kinda grown up in, And realizing there's

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many different expressions and many different ways to worship

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and different communities, I I just love I

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love that fabric that the Lord weaves us in it, and there's not one right

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one. It's like that fragrance going before heaven of

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worship. God wants all the different fragrances. It'll

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be really boring if it if it all smelled the same, if it all sounded

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the same. So I I just really think bringing in all these

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different expressions are is just a representation of what the

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lord has in store for us when we get to heaven. Absolutely.

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I I think one of the things that I took away from our last interview

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with Shannon and David and from our own experiences that we've discussed

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over coffee is that there is such richness

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in diversity. In different ethnic diversities,

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in different denominations, we get to encounter one of the

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things I love about my job is I get to sit around tables that

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are Baptist, Pentecostal, Vineyard,

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Catholic, diocese. They're so and, like,

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sitting around different nucleus of tables that often

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think alike for the most part, that that's what unites them

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together. But being able to be sort of a neuron between

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cells sitting at different tables and celebrating the

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diversity, and that could go with cultural groups too. There's a

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a a quote. I think it's a bit adapted, but from Henry now, and

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he talks about diversity and how can we love

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across diversity. And he says something like this. Love begins when

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we risk being known by people who are different than us.

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And I think that's important. Like, it's not just about having a

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parade of diversity as if that becomes our goal,

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our end goal. But what does it mean to actually love

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another person, not just in my image or what how they fit

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into my world, but how do we actually just show up at the

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table and love each other in our diversity,

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but we have to get away from just simply our own

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kind, the places where we feel comfortable,

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but sitting within diversity. Yeah.

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Getting uncomfortable. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. I think we need to put

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ourselves in uncomfortable situations in in order to learn how to do

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that, get out of those comfort zones, to be able to learn how to love

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people properly. I mean, I've had the privilege of growing up where

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my parents fostered over 50 kids, different diverse

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backgrounds, all sorts of cultural backgrounds. So I've had to learn

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to love and live with different cultures and different

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expressions and whole different lifestyles, but not everybody

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has that opportunity. Sometimes we're stuck in those echo chambers

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where the person sitting beside us is very much like

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us. So how do we get churches out of their

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comfort zone and how do we get them learning to love these other

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diverse expressions? I know our society,

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we often find ourself with like minded people

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who think like us, who worship like us, and and and it's very easy by

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default we wanna find. I think there's a sense of security and

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camaraderie in that, but I think we have to be intentional.

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There's no one in Canada that can say, oh, I don't have

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the opportunity for diversity. We have to be

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intentional about seeing other people as our

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neighbor. We have to see that other person and not just be blocked out

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by fear. What if they don't like me or what if we don't think alike?

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God invites us into those places, and and we

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have nothing to fear in creating space

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around our table. And also not just waiting for people to come to

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us, but going into circles, being intentional, being a humble

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presence, in these places, not to assimilate and pretend, oh, now

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I'm Jamaican or now I'm South American from the

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from Bolivia, for example. But I can live within among

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them and learn different ways and practices and

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world views and learn to appreciate the

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other. So why do we build up these

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bubbles if it's keeping us from diverse experiences that

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could potentially be exciting? I would say we probably, deep

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down inside, fear discomfort.

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Like, who really wants to be discomforted. Right? We

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want something that's familiar. We want something that's

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safe, but it really challenges our

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security. But I believe that if we are secure in Christ, if

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our attachment is securely rooted in Christ, who by

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very nature of coming out of his comfort

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showed us the way of discomfort. He was always

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breaking social bubbles. If you you look through scripture, he

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was eating with outsiders. He was talking to the marginalized. He was challenging

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power struggles and structures within

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society, and we are invited to

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that. But I think we we've got to get through

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that notion of feeling safe

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is where god is. No. Actually, God is on the margins.

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And so if we wanna find Jesus, it's like Matthew 25.

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When did you see me hungry? When did you see me in prison? Who wants

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to be among the hungry? Who wants to go into prison? I've I've volunteered

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there. It's not a a most comforting place. But

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Jesus says, that's where I'm found. And often we're looking

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for Jesus in the clubhouse, in the church, where we

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feel safe, where we we have safe theology. We use a lot of

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safety talk. And our god is not safe. We know

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from Aslan. Right? But he is good. But I think we know

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inherently that going through uncomfortable experiences

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actually helps us to grow. It's like, why do we choose certain

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experiences to say, you know what, I wanna stay comfortable in this

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area. I don't really wanna grow in this area. So I think maybe

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maybe the question is what areas do I wanna grow? And

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then you take the answer to that question and say, okay, what areas do I

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need to get uncomfortable in order to do that? Mhmm. So like, do we wanna

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grow spiritually? Okay. What's gonna make you uncomfortable? How are you gonna grow

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spiritually? Because you learn from being uncomfortable and you

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learn from mistakes and taking risks. But it seems like

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we're not willing to do that in in so many areas. Yeah. And so

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that is an invitation. People will have different kinds of

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invitations right around them what that looks like. I

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couldn't tell every listener, do this x, y, and

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z, and then you are gonna grow, or then you are gonna be more open

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minded, or you're going to love others better. Yeah. It looks

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different for all of us. Right? It it is different. I I know one of

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the times, if I can share, I was invited to go to The Middle

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East on a peace mediation delegation tour. Now that

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was a a learning opportunity that I had when I was in seminary. I

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wanted to get out of the classroom because, like, I can read textbooks. I can

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talk to theologians in tweed suits, but I actually wanted to

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be in the Israel, in Palestine to see what has

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actually happened. I I went there on a biblical, like, quest to

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understand the Bible better, but I also wanted to understand in my global

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studies what is actually happening on the ground. And so I

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left my textbooks behind. I packed my little backpack and

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went there, one summer from peace mediation. And and I did

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some some touring on my own. And this is during an era

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when there were and still is it's not tour season right

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now, and it wasn't back then either. There's always wars, and

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and that was a really, time of unrest. And

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I sat down with soldier Israeli soldiers and had

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conversations with them. I stayed with a Palestinian family in

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the West Bank and and learned their stories. I got to

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visit with a family that was grieving because they had just

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lost their son and their brother and their uncle. He was a suicide

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bomber. I talked with a family who lost their

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son, a Palestinian boy getting bread and was shot,

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by snipers. I also went into settlements and Jewish

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settlements that had taken over the land. I sat with Christians and

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a huge uprising of church believers within the Palestinian. I

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sat with them, and I also on the Israeli, the the messianic

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Christians and Jews. That was my purpose, to sit with

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and have chai. Boy, did I learn to love chai. I came

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away from that experience, though, seeing Jesus

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in each one of them. And now when I look in the news, I know

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they they love to do black and white. This is what is right. If you're

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gonna be good, do the it's always more complicated. And I think

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it starts with a thousand cups of chai

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of just sitting and listening and hearing and

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relating. And I feel that Jesus taught me

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that. In the Garden Of Gethsemane, I was literally there talking

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with people. And that's what what Jesus was teaching me and

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inviting me to. And I can tell you, I learned a lot

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more out of that peace mediation delegation trip. I wasn't there bringing peace. I

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didn't obviously, there's still like, I couldn't be the hero there.

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We we really need the Lord as hero there. But listening,

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it was very transformative for my life.

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Yeah. And this series is called the cost of indifference. So I was thinking about,

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okay, what's the cost of not having these diverse experiences?

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And again, it comes down to growth, I believe. Mhmm. It's like a

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plant in soil. If it sits in that same soil for too

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long, it has used up all those nutrients and there's nothing

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new coming into it. Right? Yeah. That's why so many farmers use

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crop rotation or they use diff they do different crops every year because it

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needs new nutrients in that soil, new experiences to be

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able to grow and be healthy. So I think the cost of

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indifference in in not diversifying and not getting

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these new experiences, not getting uncomfortable is gonna be lack

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of growth. You're gonna be stagnant. You're gonna be stuck in that

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echo chamber and not and not grow. Let's land the plane a little bit on

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that. I like what you're saying there, but how do we help churches

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get out of echo chambers and yet still hold their distinctives? And and we're

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not asking churches to change their theologies or their practices,

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but to grow and to create room for others in the community.

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How do we actually do that? Because there's a bit

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of territorialism around, well, this is what we believe.

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And yet, can I just be honest with you? The more I'm in

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different denominations and and around the tables, I love them

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all. But when we we stay within our denominations

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and we only affirm each other based on what we all believe

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to be true and we don't expand out and and we don't

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have room for listening to other perspectives. Don't get me wrong.

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I've done homeschooling out of necessity too, but we become a bunch of denominational

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homeschoolers. We don't get out. It it becomes insular,

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and we start acting weird in community. We start saying things that

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are destructive, not because I I don't think any denomination

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wants to be a bigot, but it sure sounds a lot like

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that. It sure sounds offensive, or it sure sounds territorial.

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It sure sounds, like a power struggle when it comes out

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because we're not necessarily in touch. We don't necessarily translate. And and

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I'm not saying denominations are bad. I think there's actually beauty in

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diversity. But there is a huge danger, and I

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see that played out. And the cost of indifference

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is in the community, not necessarily within the club around that table.

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People are will affirm each other. There's confirmation bias. We're like, oh,

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wow. We're we're we're endorsing certain behaviors and

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beliefs and even vocabulary that just don't translate

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into community. I don't think Jesus would have necessarily talked

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like that with the good Samaritan. I think there's a few things that we can

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do. I keep in thinking about church leaders. First of all,

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get around a table and have conversations like this

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about stuff. Mhmm. But the other thing, like, do what Jesus did and

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serve one another. It's not necessarily about, you know what, let's

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be ecumenical, let's do this unity thing and all get

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together and just worship together, but actually

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wash the feet of another pastor that you don't necessarily

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agree with or you don't have the same theology with. Like, let's learn

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to serve one another. And I think that that getting

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low, like, that's that's what's gonna cause

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transformation because that's what Jesus did.

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Yeah. And and we can learn from each other without losing our

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identity. I know my theology gets challenged every time

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I can get and my worldview gets challenged every time I

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encounter other people. That doesn't mean I just assimilate, and now all

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of a sudden now I have that theology. I think if we're

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rooted in Christ, the holy spirit can navigate that for

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us. He can be trusted in those situations. We're we're not gonna get cooties

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because we work alongside another denomination

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that thinks maybe vastly and polar opposite than we do on a

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certain issue. It's when we idolize those issues, those

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theologies, those doctrines that we wanna fight for, we

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miss out. The indifference there is that we miss out on

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serving the other, serving each other, and loving each other, the

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person that we disagree with. But, ultimately, the vulnerable

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person, they don't get served because we're too consumed

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with trying to set the world straight to think like us,

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to behave like us, rather than working together.

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And we gotta get over ourselves saying, you know what? If I serve this person,

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other people might think I agree with him. We don't need we don't need to

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agree with someone to serve them. We just need to love them and

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get to know them a little bit. And I think then the differences

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don't matter so much because we've seen the person that Jesus

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sees. Amen to that. I I know I've been challenged

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by people to say, k. Wendy, you're you're going to government

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table. You're you're you're working with organizations that are not

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not necessarily faith based. You're working with that denomination. Do you

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know what they believe? Several times, I have the burn marks and the scar marks

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to prove it. I've been burned at the stake for those things, but I will

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always side for the vulnerable. And it and it doesn't change who

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I am and who I believe god to be, but there's always a sense of

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mystery. There's always a sense of wonder. I don't have the corner on religion,

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but God sure does. He can be trusted. It's not fun to

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stick your neck out. However, I believe that's the

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Jesus way has always had us to be with

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the vulnerable, to sit in discomfort, to

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have conversations and learn to have civil conversations. And now in

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a a political time where we're we're hard pressed to find

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civil conversations. Right? But we're challenged to love the

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other, to have civil discourse, not always agreeing,

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with the other, and that's how we can grow together. But if at the

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bottom line is that we're gonna love them no matter what, it

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changes the outcome. We can do hard things. We can have hard conversations. We

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can sit in discomfort. We can be with people that don't look like us, and

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we can even get accusations from others thinking, oh, look who she's associate or

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he's associating with. We can do that. That is the Jesus

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way. That is how we are going to see growth within the church.

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Because we're all in really big trouble if Jesus only served

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people he agreed with. Mhmm. Let's land on the listener

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challenge for this week then. So think of someone that you are very

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different from, whether it's theologically or even

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culturally, and think of a way that you can serve

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that person or organization. And and do it. At

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least do it once. Try it. And that's gonna be the challenge for this

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week. But now it's time for that Care lingo segment. Here we go.

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CareLingo. Today, I'm gonna choose an acronym that

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sometimes gets thrown around in caregiver talk,

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TBRI. So, Johan, can you tell

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me what you think of when I say the word TBRI? It's

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not that hard because I came onto the team a couple years ago now, and

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I kept hearing this term, and I had no idea what you guys were talking

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about in the middle of a conversation. So this is a good one for our

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listeners to hear because I think we've probably thrown around the podcast in

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previous episodes. I think so. Yeah. So

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in true Johan fashion, I got two options, I think. TBRI,

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if I was hearing it for the first time, I might think too

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busy, rarely involved. You know, in the caregiver space,

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sometimes you we get so busy, that we'd Like TMI.

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Too busy, rarely involved. It could be a good text. Yeah. Exactly. It's

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like Yeah. That guy is TBRI. He's too busy, rarely involved.

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What Care Impact's doing, you know? We don't want TBRI

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people, connected to Care Impact. Oh, no. That is

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not even straight. Yeah. And then there's

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the other one, TBRI. Totally burnt

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out running on instinct. Now I I

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sometimes relate to this one a little bit more. I'm not totally burnt out,

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but, you know, sometimes you get busier times, like Mhmm. When

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that when that next podcast episode is due and you haven't started the

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edit yet, I'm running on instinct. Just, you know, click, click, click, click, click,

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click, and this episode's getting out tomorrow no matter what. Yeah.

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Yes. So TBRI. So what is the real definition? Well, let me

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translate here for you. I can put it's something that I utilize all the

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time. It it it's a filter that I use and we use as a a

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team here at Caro Impact, but it refers to trust based

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relational intervention. So t, trust be

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based relational intervention. It comes out of the

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Karen Purvis Institute for Child Development. So, originally, this

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is a term TBI, trust based relational intervention was referred

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to child development, particularly with foster kids,

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kids coming from difficult places in in adoption and some

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beautiful training out of that. Some of our team members have that training.

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Also, is the basis for, trauma free world, which we are

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doing trauma care, training across Canada using

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TBRI. So it's a trauma informed approach that is

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designed to help people in hard places heal through

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connection. Relationships is so important, and empowering

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them. And and being able to redirect where they are going. It's

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going beyond the behavior looking what are the what's behind the

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behavior that's causing this person such distress. And

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it's not about managing those behaviors. It's looking at the root

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causes, who have gone through significant loss

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or trauma, neglect. I would go further than that. I

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utilize it actually in how I negotiate with government or how I

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sit at the table with pastors. Those that are actually have

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fear responses, I'm like, k. What's going behind that behavior?

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The way people are are behaving, how do I connect with

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them? How do I relationally connect? Because Care Impact is all

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about breaking relational poverty across these sectors.

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And so we have to learn how do we connect before

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we bring, some possible solutions, direction,

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and supports into those areas. Because it's not just about fixing

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people, it's about connecting with people, and there's actually healing.

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And it's beautiful that it's it's when science catches up with

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God. There's a lot of neuroscience involved with TBRI,

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but it's all biblically based, and it's something that,

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is changing families. It's changing social systems. I I have

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asks from social services if we can bring some training

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in this nature. So that's TBRI. You have

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it. Trust based relational intervention. So,

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listeners, if you think you might know someone that needs to know what

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TBRI is, send them this episode and continue to share the

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podcast. Again, we are on Facebook. We got a Care Impact podcast

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group if you wanna go on there and get the latest updates. And maybe you

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have a word you wanna add add to this Care Lingo segment or

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whatever else, join our community there. And I think that's

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it, Wendy. We will see you next week. Later. Thank you for

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joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly

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episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our

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community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact

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on Facebook and Instagram. Or just check the show notes for these

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links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts,

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leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in

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faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a

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meaningful impact.

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About the Podcast

Journey With Care
Equipping communities and the Church to love neighbours well
The conversations that inspire curious Canadians on their journey of faith and living life on purpose in community. Join us for thought-provoking conversations that inspire you to live a life of purpose and connect with like-minded individuals. Discover actionable insights, practical tools, and inspiring stories from leaders who are shaping the future of faith, business, and community. Together, let's disrupt the status quo and create a world where faith and entrepreneurship intersect. Become part of a community that is passionate about making a difference.
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